 New Update!, SR4 Sample Char: Weapon Specialist |
  |
 Aug 18 2005, 08:40 AM
Post
#226
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741  |
You might want to scroll up in the convo where it was already discussed. And then stop and read everything that was said.
|
 |
 
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 09:14 AM
Post
#227
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I did. Thats why I finally decided to post something like I did.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 01:33 PM
Post
#228
|
|||||
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
How can you seriously hold this as a position? You haven't even seen the book, and you're speculating off of NOTHING! I mean, yes, this IS DS, but at least most people have some inkling to go off of. We don't even know if there IS availability any mmore. Additionally, you seem to be saying that you need to test if the writers put the correct availability on each item. Do you seriously test that? If so, wouldn't you test that with 'standard' characters too? There are plenty of items available in SR3 right now to starting characters that I disallow for whatever reason. It's not like increasing the availability should be THAT much more of a headache in that case, since you're already going to spend 4 or 5 days testing every existing item in the book to see if you personally like it. Of course, there is always the possibility (crazy as it may sound) of just playing the game and seeing how it turns out, since I can't expect you or I have enough experience now to really recognize a broken item if we encounter one, having not played it ourselves.
As has been said, your lack of faith is disturbing. If you think so poorly of the writers that you don't think you can play your characters for more than six months, why are you even bothering to buy the book? I wouldn't. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 18 2005, 02:00 PM
Post
#229
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
* Odd for some reason the forum posted this in the wrong thread. *
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 03:42 PM
Post
#230
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Actually I have some of the same misgivings about adjusting this system to higher-level campaigns as well. Mainly for a lot of the math reasons already outlined in regards to the threshold system but also because of previous experience trying to do high powered adventures in other campaigns we were just learning. However, a lot of these problems stem from lack of familiarity so while at first it will take a lot of time to adjust the game to the appropriate levels later on it will get easier.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:13 PM
Post
#231
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
In regards to the "SR4 screws the players over" discussion, I can just say that it does not apply to my group. There is no rivalery between me and my players. If there was, they would not stand much chance as we play by the rule that the GM is always right (may overrule the rules at any time). But because there is no rivalery, I use that power as fairly as I am able. They don´t need rules to protect them from me, and no rule would if they did. :ork
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:19 PM
Post
#232
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Yeah but it gets kinda annoying if you have to house rule everything because of an inherent flaw in the rules that makes the game inherently screw over the players. May as well just write your own rules at that point.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:27 PM
Post
#233
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I have to admit I haven´t read much of the analysis. I picked up some arguments that involved scenarios that had the GM set insane TN´s out of spite, however. I can´t understand why any rpg rules should take something like that into account. Other than that you´re right.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:49 PM
Post
#234
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
You know. I went ahead and skipped the majority of these posts simply due to the fact that they seemed to degenerate into mindless nonsense. Especially the part about 'Blahblah-thatsamplecharacterisueslessinmycampaign-blahblah'.
So, by my own admission, this point could have already been made. However, given that repetition is the most basic form of learning, some of you may be in for a real treat! :) So. Addressed to anyone by which this applies. Well no-flipping-duh, shithead. For fucking christsake, we're not hear to read about how far you can piss as a GM, or how much of it collects around your ankles. It's fairly -OBVIOUS- and, consequentially, does not need stating that in a higher power campaign, higher power characters will be -REQUIRED-. So give us a little courtesy and cut the bullshit so those of us who are interested in -constructive- comments don't have to repeatedly hit the 'mentalfilterthroughthesepretentiousmorons' button while we're reading through your silly, trite bitch&moanfest™. We don't need to listen to the sound of your urine trickle on a new system before we've been able to really begin to put it to the test. And I'll refrain from referencing anyone as a complete fucktard, but it is taking a -severe- degree of willpower. -RoleModel "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." P.S. Elves are still floofy and gay. That's -never- going to change. Get used to it. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:51 PM
Post
#235
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
God. What a horrendously -horrible- idea. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 04:56 PM
Post
#236
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Only reason I read all of it is because my friend I'm visiting is at work so I'm stuck in her hotel room in a shit hole frontier town. You didn't really miss much.
I play my games pretty much by the book with only minor tweaking such as purchasing build time at char gen or rules precedents to get rid of occasional problems. SR3 always worked very well with not having to tweak too much and the players didn't have to rely on the "rule of 36" too often (although it was always funny when someone did make it). The fear with SR4 is poor design or poor system period mixed in with a change in feel and general fear of something new. So far it sounds like SR4 may have some serious issues in it about making things hard for the character to accomplish thereby decreasing player interest as well as the apparently requisite core rule book bloat. Sabosect and a few others have done a good job of showing how this new system can negatively impact player's chances of succeeding in the game. As I have said in other posts SR4 really looks like it will feel and play like Exalted and nWoD and in both of those systems I felt very adverse to trying to do anything that required dice because I either succeeded or failed spectacularily. If I have a 25% chance of either succeeding beyond expectations or likely getting my character killed then I'm not going to take that action--makes for a boring game where the players are merely trying to protect characters they care about and love. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:02 PM
Post
#237
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Great stuff.... ...but you do know this is the dumpshock forums right? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:09 PM
Post
#238
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Ok Sabosec first you're going off of misconceptions on the threshold system. This system has been established in some form or another atleast since Exalted first came out with white wolf (may have been around before i'm honestly not sure but this is when I personaly first came across it) Your concept is threshold is the be all end all. Infact threshold is only a minor part. Threshold is for things such as extended tests, jumping from one building to the next, breaking that board in half in one strike. Other things like conditional penalties don't add threshold, they subtract dice from your poole. This type of thing includes wound modifiers, visibility, cover, ect. Those types of things don't add threshold. There may be a 10 dice penalty, so depending on how edge works or your dice pool you still may have a chance at success. And 10 dice is a prety hefty penalty. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:12 PM
Post
#239
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Yeah...voicing you opinion, whether wrong, right, stupid or insulting in another's view, is the main point of this forum. And as has already been said several times, why create this forum about SR4 before the rules come out if we as fans can't voice our opinions and pick apart the little bits we have seen. If I want to piss all over a new system then that is my perogative (btw DS is optional so no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to read it) You fuck tard |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:31 PM
Post
#240
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
There's no space in fucktard.
-RM "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:35 PM
Post
#241
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It could have been a declaration that you copulate with tard, whatever that is.
Anyway, here's a hint: any time you open with "I haven't read all the responses" or similar, you're speaking secret code for "I'm a fucking idiot". ~J |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 05:45 PM
Post
#242
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
No! You're a secret-code-for-I'm-a-fucktard! Neaner-neaner!
:P -RM "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 06:11 PM
Post
#243
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
You know. After reading that, I have to question you command of the English language. Don't consider this a -personal- attack, by any means. Afterall, it's entirely possible that you don't speak english as a primary language, and by that token, I'm willing to cut you a little slack. So, in an effort to help you out a bit: While in fact there is no space in 'Fucktard', there are several spaces in 'Your words make my brain ache'. I'm not sure if that's testable material in whatever remedial courses you plan on taking this fall, -however-, I'm sure it will come in handy at some point in your life!. :) -RM "I haven't figured out how to say "FUCK YOU" politely." P.S. Hey, don't hold it against me! This thread wasn't going anywhere, anyway! w00t! ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 06:33 PM
Post
#244
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Years of business writing has warped my writing skills.
However, I believe that if you stop to take the pauses indicated by the comas and actually take the time to think about what was written you may be able to figure out, in that small FUCKTARD brain of yours what that statement means. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 08:16 PM
Post
#245
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
Heh. ;)
-RM "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 08:23 PM
Post
#246
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
Oh, piss off, all of you. :D
(Sorry, just getting into the apparent spirit of things.) |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 08:29 PM
Post
#247
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Which is ironic, considering one of the main replies against my arguement is to simply adjust the availability. Or, did you pull the fallacy of simply ignoring them in favor of trying to make a nonexistant point? In my case, note that I am talking about adjusting the system to create a high-powered game more towards what my players are used to. Due to the completely different system, mainly the fact it is similar to BeCKS in the usage of large numbers, I have no clue exactly what using, say, 600 BP would do. And, even with the information we have worked out on costs, it becomes clear to me I have to spend a few days testing it to see if my adjustments overpower the characters or if my adjustments still leave them underpowered. I am, in effect, trying to adjust the system to work in a way it was not intended. Now, please take everything I say into consideration next time. And, excuse my hostile tone. We have a moron on the forum trying to ruin things.
Try 4-5 days just testing my alterations to BP to make sure I have not overpowered the characters. It's a large amount of time, but I have a lot of adjustments to test to see which one is right. As for testing the items: I know the availability is fine for the existing system. The problem is that I am moving beyond that. So, yes, I actually have to test items as well to make sure they all fit with my adjustments. I am, in effect, pretty much having to test the entire game just because of the system they use for chargen. I can't simply add 60 points, look at a few charts, and know exactly what it will do.
Won't work. Stop and consider my campaign style. That weapons specialist would be killed by security guards before the run even really got started.
Actually, I'm considering the number of items they were working on and the time they had to work on it. They were effectively rewriting the system. It took WotC two attempts and about a decade to get their rewrite of the DnD system close to what they consider correct and they're still trying to fix the hundreds of problems that cropped up. Now, I'm pretty damned sure SR won't suffer from this, but at the same time I'm also thinking that they could easily have not had enough time to test the really high powered characters and that they plan on releasing a future book to deal with the issue before it becomes a problem in most campaigns. It's actually a pretty good idea to do, as it also saves space in the main book and even with delays they can easily get out a book to cover any problems long before a full six months have passed, potentially using that book in the same way the Shadowrun Companion was used.
Which really helped the convo in what way? If you're just replying to be able to say you said something in reply, then don't waste time doing it.
If you really don't care, then do what those of us who evolved far enough to understand social etiquette do: Ignore it and grab one of the other convos in the thread. It's not like there's only been one talked about the entire time. And there's certainly other threads you can check out. In any case, don't act like a child just because you don't like what is being discussed. If you can't act like an adult, then just do everyone a favor and shut up.
Ya know, I mostly like to avoid conflict on here. But, when dealing with a simiolus stupidicus erectus (for those of you who know Latin, that's not intended as a racial comment), I have to take exception to it. Rolemodel, for once in my life, I'm going to say this: Maybe these forums are not for you. You see, most of us come on here for an adult conversation, to be able to state what we want within the limitations of etiquette and move on. You, however, come on here to prove that it is perfectly possible to know the English language with a very good familiarity and still not have enough knowledge in your head to figure out a simple case of "not allowing you parakeet mouth to overload your potato brain just because you don't like a subject being discussed," something most of us on here have figured out. Now, I must say that whoever attempted to teach you manners must be embarassed to be in the same room as you. I know I am. So, please, do all of humanity a favor by shutting up, getting in a car, and playing chicken with a train. And yes, this is a personal attack. This is a very personal attack. I couldn't get more personal without insulting your heritage, and at this point I think you've done that enough. Now, back to intelligent conversation.
:winces: Okay, I will ask this once. Please spell my name right. I know it's not intentional on your end, and I know how easy it is to memorize a misspelling, and how easy it is for eyes to play tricks on you. There is no need to apologize for it either. I probably am using misconceptions. I only have the information currently available to work with. We currently have a lot of misconceptions floating around this forum in general. I'm sure those will be cleared up. In the meantime, I can only work with what information I have.
You'll have to excuse me for this, but source? And, if it's the book, I envy you.
Yeah, that would pretty much kill the character. |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
Aug 18 2005, 09:13 PM
Post
#248
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
Look, the simple fact of the matter is that your security guards are only going to kill the weapon specialist if you make security guards of a high enough power level enough to reliably kill characters of her power level.
What we're all in the dark about is how big of a difference in power level is possible. You just happen to seem extremely confident that you have a firm grasp of those powerlevels. Do all your guards have 6s in every stat? If so, why? Do they have 5s in every stat? How do you know what the difference is between throwing 10 dice, and 8 dice. Or 12 dice and 8 dice? How do you know? I sure don't. We can approximate mathematically, like saying that the 12 dice guy gets, on average, only one more success then 8 dice guy all other things being equal. Honestly, that doesn't seem like much to me, especially since 12 dice man could just as easily roll zero successes, I see it happen all the time. And its further complicated by the fact that we don't know any of the other mechanics of the game. So, excuse us for being fed up with you. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18 2005, 09:41 PM
Post
#249
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Nerbert, we know exactly the range of power they intend. Here, let me quote you from their own FAQs.
That right there tells us they want characters who mostly have 3s or lower, with the occasional above average. Now, you want some fun? Examine the table of contents. Unless variant levels are covered under the BP heading, there is no variance in power level. And, while we're at it, you tell me how much information you think they included in the measely two pages devoted to karma and character advancement. Nezumi- Availability ratings are brought up on page 301 of SR4. Check the TOC. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 18 2005, 09:45 PM
Post
#250
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Nonsense, that could be a fake ToC designed to mislead the unfaithful, like those fake playtest rules that mfb was given that make all his potential knowledge of the system invalid! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd January 2025 - 02:08 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.