 New Update!, SR4 Sample Char: Weapon Specialist |
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 Aug 21 2005, 04:14 AM
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#301
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094  |
The majority of your trite, blathering idoicy isn't worth a response. I will point out several key issues, then, and attempt brevity to spare this forum the pains of being subjected to you further. First. I'm glad that you've conceded that your speculations hold no authority to the subject matter, and further, would be pleased for the addition of a concession that they lack relevant content as well. Second. My handy, dandy online Webster's dictionary defines "Challenge" as "A test of one's abilities or resources in a demanding but stimulating undertaking". Survivability isn't mentioned. However, difficulty, is. Therefore, the object in question determines what is 'challenging'. In this case, something a cyberzombie would shrug off might still maintain a degree of 'challenge' for this template; Gang Violence, Bar Fight, Pipe Bombs, etc. When you imply that the same standard for a 'challenge' is laid across the board equally against all comers, you once again demonstrate your uncanny ability to impress one standard over all others. (Most notably your pompous notions of self-worth.) To simplify - Anything that tests this characters abilities, strenuously, will be a challenge. Obviously, it will be suited to survive some of them, and not others of them. Tailoring what is appropriate to this character will be the job of the Gamemaster. A job, though, perhaps you ought to sit out. Third. Here is where I will make a concession of my own: "I noted the TN you provided was 40, not 30, after it had been posted, but took no steps to change it because it really didn't matter given the number was an arbitrary place holder to begin with." And, as expected, you've missed the point. You are comparing two unequal situations. If you provide a threshold requirement that is impossible for the player to obtain, you are effectively giving him the SR3 equivalent of a TN of Infinity, which no, you mathematical reject, is not possible to roll with a finite number of dice, in a finite period of time, in a finite-based-universe. I had, up until this point, given you the credit of at least a highschool education. If you would like to create the equivalent situation to a TN of 30 (Or 40, in your case dipshit), with thresholds, you can do some of those calculations you seem so sprung on, and find a nice happy medium between edge dice being rerolled as sixes, against required thresholds, to be close enough to impossible to -almost- hit it. Hopefully, you will make said calculations quietly. In a corner. Away from the rest of us. Four. I thought I made it clear enough in the previous post that not only -didn't- I want to hear about your homoerotic experiences with samurai, but I thought it was a desperate sign of a fragile ego, craving acceptence... ...And then you go ahead and proceed to -explain- it to me, anyway? Wait, this is the part where I go...
...Or is this the part where I just refer to you as a jackass? Lastly, regarding the little parting shots between the use of the word 'Tool'. I'm not really going to argue it with you, kid. If you'd prefer to be one really big tool, instead of a multitude of tools, that's all fine by me. Congratulations, you're a tool. -RoleModel "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
-I don't think that will be neccessary. I'm not sure if there's more than needs to be said on the matter. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:25 AM
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#302
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 6-March 03 Member No.: 4,211 |
Anyhow, I'm glad that the dumb luck factor has been removed. No player should ever be asking me what the TN for creating an AI is and expect a response other then, you can't do it. You can try if you want but ultimately it's a plot device. Or... the number of successes needed on a control thoughts spell to tag Harlequin. Just because the old system allows you to set nearly impossible TNs doesn't mean they need to be set. Sometimes it's best just to decide what happens, drive the story forward rather then just tossing out some randomly high number and leaving it up to some slim chance. Seriously though.....
Then again, maybe both of you are just looking for an audience and the rest of us should just ignore you. *edit*Or why not just start a seperate thread? Where the two of you can go off on each other and have the public spectacle if you want but at least stop hijacking this one before it gets closed. ;) This post has been edited by Edge2054: Aug 21 2005, 04:30 AM |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:31 AM
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#303
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
Time to comfortably crawl back into the woodwork, then. ;)
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Aug 21 2005, 04:32 AM
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#304
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If you carry on like that, it invites judgment based on who was gave a more retarded display of flaming, rather than whose point was right.
True to your tag, you win (i.e. lose) at flaming. Also, if you've failed to understand Sabosect's point, or he's failed to understand yours, you wouldn't really expect someone else to step in and clarify things now, would you? |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:37 AM
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#305
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 6-March 03 Member No.: 4,211 |
On that note, most people respond better to constructive criticism that's not laced thoroughly with personal insults and sarcasm. It's one thing to point out someone elses logical faults and it's another to rip them into little pieces and take a shit on them. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:50 AM
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#306
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Neither has the pompous declarations of your moronic "majesty", but I've enjoyed the entertainment.
Gee, I dunno. So far I've actually attempted to add something. All you've done is rant on and on and on in a purile attempt to prove your superiority. Which, by the way, isn't working. So, really, I would say it's more to spare yourself.
I haven't conceded anything. Merely pointed out the reality. Relevance is determined by subject matter and point attempted. Since you missed it, I'll point it out. The question brought up early on was whether or not SR4 is adaptive to certain campaign styles. My point has been that it isn't. I'm currently waiting for a few replies from Tisoz before I finish my examination and come up with my final opinion on the subject. However, to some, what I said is important because their own campaigns are similar in style. Not everyone plays street style.
Once again, you fail basic reading comprehension. I never did imply that challenge is laid equally. However, I can prove to you that it has. Go read Tisoz's posts and note what information he pulled from the book about challenge. In fact, note your own posts where you brought it up.
An irony: This conversation started because of you bitching about my comments on tailoring. Now you're saying I am basically not going to tailor to the characters? Wow. Make up your mind: Am I tailoring too much, or not enough?
As expected, you attempted to twist a minor item into a point in a futile hope you can ignore what you wish. You've been doing that the entire time. Well, guess what: It isn't working, and it's only getting more and more obvious on your end that you are running out of items to say without going further and further into absurdity.
Little piece of common sense: You cannot compare separate systems of rolling dice without comparing unequal situations. You have to compare the inequality and determine which one is better.
Wow. The monkey is punching away at the calculator. Okay, tell me: At what point did I specify time taken? If you can answer that, you can have a point. Until then, you have none because you are facing the fact I said a possibility. You also, Mr. "I 'passed' math," have to accept the fact that, mathematically, it is not impossible. The chance approaches zero, but never gets to it. It's one of those lovely mathematical concepts you should learn later, and even learn how to calculate for. If you wish to prove it is, you have to prove the universe has a finite amount of time. You also have to prove that it will never happen. And, before you bring up mortality, I'll remind you of the strange things people sometimes put in their wills.
Nah. I don't want to take your favorite spot.
I'm sorry, but are you saying you are important enough that I should care what you want and don't want? Didn't think so. Now, stop twisting it to your own fantasy land and read the rest of the statement to get the real point.
Refer as you wish. Won't really change your status.
Hey, man, even tools have roles in society and some acceptance in it. Just too bad your niche is to be an example of those who don't. Now, sonny, come back when you're on your meds and we can have a real talk. Until then, don't bother using up the bandwidth.
I've had my fun. I really doubt there is anything more that can be said. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:59 AM
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#307
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Nah. No need. As far as I'm concerned, this is over. It's just too bad I spent all my time typing and missed a few posts. To be honest, I know my role on these forums. Now, I'm getting back to it. This was fun, but not something I want to continue. After awhile, it gets boring. If I want an extended flamefest, I'll just post a bad review of Final Fantasy on the GameFAQs forums. My only complaint about the removal of those random luck roles is the same thing you view as a boon. I don't get the joy of watching my players try for months to hit that TN 200. I would rather give them something that's remotely possible than outright tell them its impossible. The remote possibility, to me, represents the chance of an accidental discovery. Like, say, they're working on a new program and accidentally hit the right combination to create an AI without all of the steps in between. It's an astronomical set of odds, but similar discoveries have happened in real life. |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:00 AM
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#308
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Actually, I'd call that an example of Not-Even-Remotely-Having-A-Feel-For-Probability, more than anything else. ;) Reminds me of a game I was in a few years ago, where players thought a caper involving ten steps, each with a ~ 90% chance of success was a brilliantly foolproof idea. (not that I'm trying to flame anyone here, but it is seriously faulty logic) |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:08 AM
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#309
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Actually, those numbers were sarcastic. Personally, I was too much in shock that it was missed as such to reply. I'm still partly in shock that it was missed.
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Aug 21 2005, 09:31 AM
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#310
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
simple, sarcasm do not work 75% of the time on the net. only time it works is if both the reader and the writer are from the same area of the world, have the same view of things and so on. or if the entire post is written so off beat that one can do nothing other then dismiss it as a joke...
basicly sarcasm is an art, and more often then not as much about body language as the words used. this is why i more and more often put in these boys in my posts :cyber: :silly: :vegm: :P and so on. why? they help defuse a confusion ;) |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:29 AM
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#311
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
You once again demonstrate being able to fill up an entire page, and still manage not to say -anything-. And even go as far as proving my points for me.
In your comparison of X and Y, you state that the characteristic of X handles a situation one way, while Y handles it another. Ok, fair enough. And then you go onto to say that X -is the effectively the same- as Y, which, unfortunately, is not true. A difficult, yet attainable probability is not the same as impossible. I imagine you should know that, after referencing first year calculus. And thus, you cannot set your equations modeling the opposed systems as equal, until you create the situation as equal. Twelve does not equal thirty (Or fourty, dip shit! :) ). And no, I'm not going to argue the universe, it's amount of time, matter, or potential energy with you, fuckstick. Because it would be rapidly losing relevance, much like you are losing any relevance you may have had. In a vain attempt to hold onto some degree of meaning in your posts, you may continue to squirm around, praying to hit something in the unfocused verbal flailing you exhibit; By all means, continue. However, as much as I realize it sucks to be called out, a much more appropriate response would be: "Oh. Yeah. You know, I said that without really thinking it through. Fair enough." Rather than continuing to look like an ass, hoping to keep an obviously stained record unblemished. Tool(s). (Hehe!) -Rolemodel "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:55 PM
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#312
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Sabosanct and Rolemodel: You both realize the only reason you aren't banned is because the report function doesn't work, and therefore the masses can't express to the admin just what asses you're being?
GO AWAY. |
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Aug 21 2005, 03:08 PM
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#313
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, I often miss RPG.net's feature of being able to put specific posters on ignore.
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Aug 21 2005, 03:48 PM
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#314
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
I have to agree with DE, the ability to "ignore" for a while would be nice ... but onto more interesting (ie: game related) blathering.... After reading more and starting to construct some tests using various "theoretical" characters ... new and experienced, we're starting to see somethings. I want to also note that I will put into play some of the comments from the "What's Up.." seminar as well as comments from elsewhere paraphrased as best as I am able to. A) Under Skill Development (post character creation), no skill may be developed above a rating of 6 through the expenditure of karma with the exception of those whom have the Quality of Aptitude with a particular skill which allows it to go to a 7. This is one limitation we are immediately throwing out. I understand that Rob and the other devs were working towards creating a more "street level" campaign, but as I have often said in the past ... "Epic" is not a measure of power it is a measure of roleplay intensity. By trying to create a system that is inherently limiting you are automatically going to set limits in the mindsets of the players. Not the best thing to do ever. B) I understand the Spirits thing/rules considerably better and will really enjoying playtesting this one in our own group just to see what happens. I do find the DV (Drain Value) for Summoning a Spirit to be overzealous but at the same time I also find the rules for Spirits to have changed so much as to perhaps require this zealousy (word?). To sum it up, there are the four types of elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) as well as Spirits of Man and Spirits of Beasts. Mages (Hermetics) get the four elemental types and Spirits of Man. Shamans (Shamanics(?)) get Air, Earth, Water, Man and Beasts. In truth, the Mages information gives me the impression like it is setup to allow for the WuJen type mysticism easier down the road. C) Spell Force - Wow ... though not heavy Wow. This is all tied into the Magic Attribute (more later I think). Learning a new spell is 5 points of Karma, flat rate. Learning Spell is, IMO, incredibly easier to do. Whenever the Street Magic book comes out, I can hardly wait to see what the rules for Designing Spells will be. D) Ritual Spellcasting (Ritual Sorcery), I can only say that "Yes, we'll be using this more." Any magician with a decent degree of fully developed initiation is going to be intensely lethal with Ritual Spellcasting. I am presuming (perhaps wrongly) that expanded rules for Ritual Spellcasting will be provided in the future Street Magic book as well because if all Ritual Spellcasting were to use these rules, then the world of Shadowrun would've blown up from it's usage by now IMO. E) Casting Spells. Okay ... I have an understanding of why spell force should limit the effect of a spell's hits on some occasion, but on spells that are resisted spells I fail to fully understand the limit. I'm not sure I can relate my concern here without quoting a whole section of the book (which I will not do), but while I can see how a limit might apply to spells like Mind Probe or Analyze Device ... I do not see why the limit has to exist for spells like Manabolt and Blast. F) Back to Spirits ... anyone can have a Bound Spirit. The process is (basically) Summon the Spirit (using Summoning + Magic) but is now an OPPOSED Test, with the would-be summoned spirits Force used to oppose the test (I actually really like this idea). After this, then the would-be Binder using their Binding + Magic in another OPPOSED test this time with the Spirit getting twice their Force to oppose with. All they need to Bind is one net success ("Net" in this instance for SR4 now means the final tally of successful hits). Binding now basically means the spirit remains in service until all Services it "owes" to the Summoner/Binder are used up. Additional hits after the first net indicates additional services the spirit now "owes" to the Summoner/Binder. G) Initiation - Okay ... cool what they do give but annoying on other scales. The biggest one that will take some playing out to determine is that as the magician advances, they do NOT automatically increase their magic attribute. What they do is they increase their magic attribute CAP. They must still increase their magic attribute using karma as they would increase any other attribute. This is the one example I have found so far that allows for an attribute to go beyond the natural cap of 6, prior to adjustments for Race or Mods. I guess you could view Initiation as a "Magical Mod" now if you wanted to. H) Metamagical abilities (the few given) simply are quick, easy and make sense. Centering, Masking, Flexible Signature, Quickening and Shielding are the ones given. Centering and Shielding are very simple to use now. Masking is basically what it used to be as is Quickening. Flexible Signature is the new one and to understand what it does, take the name for what it is. It is the ability to dramatically alter/reduce the impact of ones Astral Signature upon the astral plane. I particularly like the one about reducing how long a spellcasting signature remains. More Mundane Stuff- A) Learning Skills, I don't think this section has changed much with the exception of the skill cap I mention above. I do admit, I have to like the fact that learning a brand new skill is now 4 Karma instead of 1. Cost for skill advancement again does not bother me in the slightest. B) Commlink/RFID chips ... okay, suffice to say everyone will get one of the Commlinks *somehow*. RFID chips are cool, and definitely an extension of the dystopian "Big Brother" mentality, but they are also something that already is being looked beyond in modern science. I appreciated the team working on improving the tech curve, but this is definitely one where someone should've dug deeper. Technomancers (more later) but I have to say this. Way cool concept, and I am really irked now that System Failure did not come out. I would really like to know how they explained this happening in the world. Still haven't really read through the Matrix/Rigger section yet though, so I will go more into this later. |
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Aug 21 2005, 03:50 PM
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#315
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I would have thought that you at least would be smart enough to realize why that feature is a horrible, horrible idea… ~J |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:06 PM
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#316
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I guess not, because I do use it occasionally on RPG.net and haven't had any horrible experiences. I do like having the option, used or not. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:26 PM
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#317
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 6-March 03 Member No.: 4,211 |
My question is can that quality stack? In other words if you buy it enough times can you end up with a skill higher then 7? Or is 7 the absolute cap? What about dragons? Especially great dragons. Do they end up with a sorcery of 6 + stat for dice just like everyone else? I seem to remember Rhonaby's (SP?) old skill list as being pretty uber in the sorcery area. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:33 PM
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#318
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
A quick question: I hope to God someone taped all these seminars.
This year especially is making me swear at: 1. My lack of money; 2. My lack of time; 3. Most frustratingly, my lack of mobility. (Even if I had time and money, I'm unsure I'd be able to handle GenCon with any success, given mobility impairments.) Adam? Anyone? |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:25 PM
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#319
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That might be a good way for handling it. Allow multiples on a given skill to stack. It certainly makes it expensive to take the skill higher but that seems a good thing, no? Incidentally is there a firm or suggested limit on Qualities in count and/or total value? |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:34 PM
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#320
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
Thanks for the summary. I'm really interested in the vehicle rules. Are there any rules for performing called shots vs vehicle subsystems (tires, windshields, etc...) How did they handle vehicle armor? How effective is magic and Spirits vs. vehicles/drones? Is there a decent amount of vehicles and drones in the main rulebook, and if not, does it look like it will be hard to convert current SR3 hardware to the new edition? Are passengers still forced to hold their actions to act after the vehicle's driver does? Are acceleration/breaking handled differently? And most importantly: Are Riggers still viable characters with the new rules, or am I going to have to wait for future sourcebooks to fill in the gaps enough to make them playable? |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:36 PM
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#321
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
I completely agree with this sentiment. I give this example. A magician runner has spotted a guard using binoculars or magesight goggles. He needs to take him out quickly and quietly. So he casts a simple sleep bolt spell. The guard has a willpower of 2 or 3. The mage should be able to completely knock out the guard sentry with his sleep bolt spell without resorting to a spell of such force that it causes physical damage drain. |
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Aug 21 2005, 06:03 PM
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#322
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, and you should only have to cast Inivisibility at Force 1 and let your massive number of Hits completely blind people. :wobble: I think this is a good thing. Want to take them out in one shot? Then pay the price. |
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Aug 21 2005, 06:39 PM
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#323
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Physical drain is a little high a price to pay for knocking out a single security guard with a sleep bolt spell. Ahhhh..... I feel a house rule coming. That will prevent the caster from getting ridiculous levels of successes with low force spells while still allowing them to preform some tasks without resorting to physical damage. Perhaps changing the dice from (Magic)+(Spellcasting) to (Force) + (Spellcasting) with magic once again relegated to the sole purpose of determining if physical or mental drain while chucking the maximum success rule. That would keep spell Force relevant while not handicapping spells with the max successes = Force rule. |
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Aug 21 2005, 08:23 PM
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#324
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
nah, why should skill allow you to do more with less effort? that's just crazy-talk.
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Aug 21 2005, 09:18 PM
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#325
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
You can only get Aptitude once, for a single skill.
They roll a ginormous amount of dice, and aren't subject to the same limitations as metahumans.
I think you should be able to pretty easily, if you have a Magic Rating of 5. Fire off a Force 5 Stunbolt, and then your DV is 5 + hits. If you get 4 or more net hits, the hapless guard is knocked out. Besides which, the drain even on a Force 5 stunbolt is only 1 point; you only need 1 hit to stage it down. If you overcast it at Force 7 (almost sure to knock the guard out), you are still only suffering 7/2 (round down) - 1 Drain or 2 points; you only need 2 hits to stage it down to nothing, and even if you don't stage it down, you won't have wound penalties.
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