 New Update!, SR4 Sample Char: Weapon Specialist |
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 Aug 21 2005, 09:28 PM
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#326
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
To expect 4 hits you need 12 dice. To expect 5 hits (since the guard will be expecting about one hit) you'll need 15.
You need to be godlike to nail him with one hit unless I've missed something, which is definitely possible. ~J |
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Aug 21 2005, 09:32 PM
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#327
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Erm. Edge? You'll probably be rolling anywhere from 8-10 dice pre-Edge, and there's some other modifiers that can help, too (Mentor Spirit modifiers, Spirit assistance dice, Foci, etc.). Besides, Force 7, as I stated before, only does 2 DV drain, which is barely enough to ding you, and that would only require 2 net hits to KO that guard. |
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Aug 21 2005, 09:37 PM
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#328
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Edge ranges from 1-6 (7 for the exceptional) and refreshes similarly to Karma Pool, correct? If so, it's a non-answer—if you need to reach into your bag of exceptional luck to down an average or below-average guard, you've failed.
~J |
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Aug 21 2005, 09:39 PM
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#329
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
What's so wrong about casting a Force 7 spell that does less Damage than a knife wielded by a 10-year old? Or even a Force 9 spell (guaranteed to drop the guard, flat out) that only does 3 boxes of Drain? Sure, it's physical Drain, but Hold-Out Pistols do more damage than that. |
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Aug 21 2005, 09:43 PM
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#330
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Sorry, I was focusing on the edge response. The rest sounds much better—not great, but better.
~J |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:31 PM
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#331
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
Hansoo has his example correct and using the "Invisibility Force 1" example is, at least IMO a completely misplaced analogy.
As for Smed's questions ... I haven't made it that far into the books, but I do know that Rob is of the opinion that there will *NOT* be a Vehicle B/R system like Rigger-2/Rigger-3 had. As I said, there are places where I disagree strongly with the devs opinions. I believe there are pictures with most of the guns and at least some of the other gear though, to at least give people some visual cues to work with on a few items. I may have to reread, but I think the rules for "Indirect Combat Magic" (Elemental Manipulations in 3rd Ed) work much the same as the rules for Ranged Combat. It's the Direct Combat Magic (Combat Spells in 3rd Ed) that I just see issues arising with. To whomever made the remark about a "House Rule", yeah I would agree... there are likely to be many "House Rules" strike into the SR4 magic section with our group here as well. Of course, if the rules falter too far by the time we're done reading, then we'll still fall back onto 3rd Ed and maybe make some reverse-engineered sections from 4th ed. Hrm... would that be called "Revervising?" :spin: |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:34 PM
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#332
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
HURRAY!!! SYL |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:51 PM
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#333
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Another House Rule I'm toying with is to increase damage staging from 1 to 2. So every extra success from a spell or weapon would cause 2 more boxes of damage not one. I can't be sure since I don't have the book yet, but I'm starting to get the opinion that SR4 has lost some of its SR3's lethality.
Because it shouldn't be necessary. We're talking about taking out a grunt! by surprise! With no enemy spell defense! In SR3 this would have been a very easy task. But in SR4 you'd need a god-like roll plus put the force into the physical damage range to avoid the maximum success rule. |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:55 PM
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#334
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
So, in other words, you have to pay twice to be allowed to raise Magic above 6? This is quite interesting. It sounds to me as though they are using this as a way to prevent magicians from innitiating themselves into godhood. That was a slight problem some GMs experienced with SR4.
I must say I love this. They promised to streamline it, and that appears to me as though they have.
Hmm. This makes me think they will be releasing more advanced options in later books. It is quite possible that what they are doing with this is the common version every man on the street will have, to fit with their idea of a street-level setting. The more advanced stuff is likely to be found in books that come later. It's annoying, but not something we can't deal with.
So, what are they? Mages who affect technology? Or uberotaku? The concept may sound cool, but at the same time it's irksome. An exact explanation of how they work is pretty much required in order for them to not be annoying. Rolemodel- Look, play time is over. Crawl back into the shadows, under a rock, whatever. It's no longer amusing and, frankly, I have better things to deal with. The entertainment value was worn out before my previous post, and now you're just reaching. We adults will be actually discussing. You can join in, or try to find some other way to attempt to establish yourself as important. Either way, I don't care. Consider yourself dismissed and any further wastes of electrons you attempt to use to regain my attention ignored as not worth my time. Maybe, if you can contribute to the conversation, we can have another of our chats. Oh, and you should really listen to the advice given towards you. It'll save you embarassment in the future. |
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Aug 21 2005, 10:57 PM
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#335
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
That's unfortunate. One of the things I liked best about playing a Rigger was tinkering with vehicles and drones. Taking a stock drone or cheap car and modifying the hell out of it was fun. If Rob is opposed to giving design and customization rules for Vehicles, I wonder how he feels about design rules for other areas, like Spell Design? |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:02 PM
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#336
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
There is a difference between customizing and building a vehicle. I suppose there will be lot of customizing options avaible for your commlink, vehicle and weapon.
SYL |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:05 PM
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#337
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
There are no rules for building vehicles in SR3. Let me repeat this: there are no rules for building vehicles in SR3.
The rules you refer to are for generating new stock vehicles that already exist in the world. ~J |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:19 PM
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#338
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 20-August 05 Member No.: 7,576 |
Are you sure about this? It seems awfully steep, and it also contradicts what tisoz wrote earlier. Does this mean that an adept with magic 6 has to pay 34 karma (21 magic + 13 initiation) to get another power point? And 40 karma for the next one?
How does centering work? |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:35 PM
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#339
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, not the best choice. A better way to have put it is that under SR3 Force was separate from Damage level chosen. In SR4 Force is the Damage level chosen. If you aren't willing to take the drain risks of a serious Damage level you shouldn't expect to do a serious amount of damage. |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:45 PM
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#340
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
You could use those rules to create a totally unique vehicle if your GM decided that you had the right skills/contacts/facilities..., but IMO the cost would likely be orders of magnitude higher than what R3 suggests. I usually used R3's rules to create new stock vehicles to fill in gaps for vehicles that didn't already exist, or to modify existing vehicles. |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:53 PM
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#341
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Drain codes are much smaller than they used to be (Stun Bolt at Force 7 only does 2 boxes of damage!? That's like getting an S + 1 wound for 2 Light Physical boxes, which you can stage down with two hits), but take about the same amount of successes to stage down to nothing... you are more likely to take 1 to 3 boxes of damage (Physical, Stun, or otherwise), but even if you cast at an obscene Force, you are not likely to get fried too badly, especially with Stun Bolt and some of the other traditional "Drain Saving" spells. Force becomes more significant, as it is the prime determinant of effect, rather than the number of Spellcasting dice thrown. Of course, it helps that you can cast spells at any Force now... you are only limited up to twice your Magic attribute.
Centering subtracts directly from Drain. You take a Free Action (in conjunction with the Complex Action to cast your spell, summon your spirit, etc.), roll your Initiate Grade in dice, and subtract any hits from the Drain. Shielding adds dice equal to your Initiate Grade for the purposes of resisting Hostile Spells, in addition to your usual Counterspelling + Resisting Attribute (Body or Willpower) dice. In other words, if you have Shielding, add your Initiate Grade to your Spell Defense. Spell Defense simply adds Counterspelling Dice to your Resistance rolls and any that you designate (with a Free Action) to protect. You are always assumed to be continually protecting yourself. In a lot of ways, other than the obviously static TN, it's like what Shielding used to be. A lot of the mechanics in SR4 manage to bypass the "Threshold 2" problem that SR2 and SR3 had, where odd numbers of successes often didn't count at all because everything required 2 successes to stage up/down. |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:00 AM
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#342
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I noticed though that in calculating Drain the standard is normally Force/2. At least they got rid of some of them, and apparently most that deal with actual number of Hits? EDIT: I guess Centering only being used for avoiding Drain is a pretty good way to take what was a fugly mechanic and make it usable. |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:03 AM
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#343
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, the Force/2 Drain "problem" still exists. Most people like the fact that it's rounded down; it's neither here nor there. You could always go with the sanctioned (read: in every single edition of SR) house rule that base Drain is equal to Force instead of Force/2. Just as the 6/7 problem is something you live with when you play SR3, you also live with the "2 successes to change any variable in the game" Threshold rules. |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:45 AM
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#344
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
i agree. i also find it strange that they exclude the possibility that there will be a rigger 4, i mean, hey, its not like we want this shit for free... (we'd pay for it). But if they'd offer a conversion guide for SR3 Vehicles and some future equipment for hackers in other books, its going to be ok for me. We can easily create new vehicles and chassis by our own, the german Rigger 3 for example contained some chassis that were not to be found in the original. lets just hope that they didn't change much with the vehicles. could anyone fill me in on the vehicle rules, especially electronic warfare (ECM,ED).. will there be a cannon companion? |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:48 AM
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#345
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
I have a feeling they won't be allowing us to design our own anything with this edition, based on that rigger comment and the complaints they will get. Which is a shame. Even if just riggers, it kills the flavor a bit.
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Aug 22 2005, 01:00 AM
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#346
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
well if they don't offer a conversion guide, we will simply have to figure out one ourselves, shouldn't be too hard, and build vehicles with Rigger 3 and convert them afterwards....
On the other hand, if we apply enough pressure, they might simply change their minds.... |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:49 AM
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#347
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Or you could just build them in SR4. Seriously all those did were give some names for features and ballpark numbers for what they could do and cost. It isn't anything that can't be extrapolated from a good selection of the canon vehicles. To end up with reasonable vehicles relied on GM intervention anyway.
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Aug 22 2005, 03:56 AM
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#348
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Only if you have a good selection. SR3 lacked that.
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Aug 22 2005, 04:47 AM
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#349
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Or, R4 could come out right before SR5.:-D
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