Cyberware and SR4 characters - Dumpshock Forums

Cyberware and SR4 characters

JÃ¼rgen Hubert View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 06:52 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,453	Neither of the sample characters presented so far have cyberware. Not surprising in the case of the combat mage, but rather surprising in the case of the weapon specialist. Now there are two possibilities: - The characters are less than optimized for their supposed role. There is precedence for this - IIRC, none of the sample characters in previous Shadowrun editions were really all that effective builds... - It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters Of course, cyberware should still provide a significant edge - it must be worth the money and the increased risk of detection by sensors. But if it is no longer all that overwhelming, I would be happy...

Pandamoanyum View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 07:01 AM Post #2
Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 16-August 05 From: Bug city Member No.: 7,557	Well, I think it's safe to assume that these sample characters won't be optimized, power-tweaked munchkins. ;) Still, if these characters are anything to judge by, the starting power level really does seem to be more street level. The SR3 Weapons Specialist's top ranged combat skill is a 6. Throw in 7 more dice from combat pool and that's a potential 13 dice she can sling with a base TN 4 in most situations. The new one can use 8 dice with her best skillset at TN 5. However, that doesn't really bother me (since I'm hopeful there's balance and progression.) What weirds me out is that I was led to believe that Edge was there to help non-cybered mundanes keep up during the midgame. As such, I would expect the Weapons Specialist to have a higher Edge, but no dice. Granted, it's not lower either.

fistandantilus4....

Aug 18 2005, 07:07 AM

Post #3

Uncle Fisty

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QUOTE (Jürgen Hubert)

. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters

as well they should be. After all, isn't that the point of getting cybered? No one says "I think I'll lop off my arm so that I can be just as good or slightly better than everyone else!" Sorry I'm being flippant, but I keep seeing this, and it jsut dones't make sense to me.

Also, the Wpn spec didn't have much cyber in SR3. I'm waiting to see the street sam

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 10:10 AM Post #4
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	yes, most of what the wen spec had of cyber have been coved by the comlink, smartlink contacts and being an elf rather then a human (both are female tho)...

Shadow_Prophet

Aug 18 2005, 01:29 PM

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QUOTE (Pandamoanyum)

Well, I think it's safe to assume that these sample characters won't be optimized, power-tweaked munchkins. ;)

Still, if these characters are anything to judge by, the starting power level really does seem to be more street level.

The SR3 Weapons Specialist's top ranged combat skill is a 6. Throw in 7 more dice from combat pool and that's a potential 13 dice she can sling with a base TN 4 in most situations. The new one can use 8 dice with her best skillset at TN 5. However, that doesn't really bother me (since I'm hopeful there's balance and progression.)

What weirds me out is that I was led to believe that Edge was there to help non-cybered mundanes keep up during the midgame. As such, I would expect the Weapons Specialist to have a higher Edge, but no dice. Granted, it's not *lower* either.

Well I believe you could have only added in 6 dice from combat pool, as I believe, you could only add combat pool up to your skill to the roll. Giving you a pool of 12 not 13 dice. But lets look at it this way.

12 dice vs your tn of 4. 8 dice vs a tn of 5 and unknown threshold. Now just looking at those numbers it would suggest that the 3rd ed version is alot more powerful. However that I believe is a unfair assessment. Due to several things.

Dodge in 4th. No one's quite sure how this actualy works right now. In 3rd you could completely avoid the shot. In 4th, we're not sure how it works yet.

In 3rd the tn would go down because of the smartlink, allowing you to get a much better chance of success especialy with combat pool. In 4th we don't know how the smartlink works. One theory I could throw out there would be that the smartlink might add 1 or 2 automatic hits in, assuming you acchieved atleast one hit yourself. That would be quite a bonus in my opinion, quickly transforming how powerful the weapons specialist was.

In 3rd your tn could skyrocket and you would have only one in a million chance of hitting it. In 4th you have threshold with only having a base tn. While Sabosec says this hinders the system makeing the 'improbable or the impossible' impossible now, I would disagree. One it makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns. This has worked very very well with white wolf, and the speed of their games has increased quite a bit. Secondly, we don't know how certain things work. Like smartlinks (see above).

In addition the 4th ed weapon specialist seems to be good with ALL firearms and ALL melee weapons as she seems to have the skill groups as upposed to blades and pistols like the mage does. The old weapon specialist didn't have the ability to use all types of weapons equally well. Which I think now is a rather large advantage to the new one.

As for the whole cyberware thing. It apears some cyberware is more wireless, notice the smartlink. I think that works out well. I'm also betting the new ware gives a good bit of edge, but from what i'm seeing and thinking it looks like non cybered chars will definately be a viable concept.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 01:39 PM Post #6
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	sabosec's arguments is that in theory you could pull of anything in SR3 given sheer luck and the rule of 6. but in SR4 the rule of 6 only come into play if you apply edge to the roll, and edge is a limited quantity, therefor ending up with many tests that are basicly a waste to roll out... i can kinda see the argument, but basic ones whole playing style on the theory that it may go, even with a 1:10^300 chance sounds to me like telling murphy to go away. your asking to mess up, and mess up big...

Darkness View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 01:45 PM Post #7
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248	Well we don't know how the threshold is going to be applied. I strongly do believe, that the normal TS is 1, especially in Ranged Combat or other combat situations. Higher Thresholds will only come in with tasks that would take longer than a complex action, like Ritual Sorcery, programming and such. Mostly actions you can have a prolonged roll against. Meaning that you roll multiple times, each roll representing a timespan of work. All situational modifiers will probably go against the dice pool. This is of course only IMHO.

Shadow_Prophet

Aug 18 2005, 01:58 PM

Post #8

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

sabosec's arguments is that in theory you could pull of anything in SR3 given sheer luck and the rule of 6. but in SR4 the rule of 6 only come into play if you apply edge to the roll, and edge is a limited quantity, therefor ending up with many tests that are basicly a waste to roll out...

i can kinda see the argument, but basic ones whole playing style on the theory that it may go, even with a 1:10^300 chance sounds to me like telling murphy to go away. your asking to mess up, and mess up big...

Yes I'd agree that in theory you could pull off anything in sr3 with enough luck, and a incompitent GM. This is a personal belief mind you. If you're going to set a tn of 30 (a example he used) you shouldn't be letting the player touch the dice. The GM at that point should be the one makeing a roll, as i believe his example delt with falling 120 m (or maybe it was ft). Doesn't even have to be a real roll (GM screens rock). The GM should be determining if the char should live, not pure dumb luck of the player.

As for the way threshold works, I imagine it would be something like the current white wolf system. Combat you ushualy only need 1 sux to land the hit, dodging takes away sux ect. Only actions that realy have a higher threshold in general are things like perception checks, navigating through the woods or other area's, certain spells, jumping from roof top to rooftop.

Things like multiple attacks I believe would subtract dice from your pool not increase the threshold. But thats speculation coming from playing with the white wolf system for some time now (originaly debued in Exalted). Thus looking at things that way that near impossible shot, you might have a minus -7 penalty to your dice pool leaving you with one die to make that critical shot.

mmu1

Aug 18 2005, 01:59 PM

Post #9

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QUOTE (Darkness)

Well we don't know how the threshold is going to be applied. I strongly do believe, that the normal TS is 1, especially in Ranged Combat or other combat situations.
Higher Thresholds will only come in with tasks that would take longer than a complex action, like Ritual Sorcery, programming and such. Mostly actions you can have a prolonged roll against. Meaning that you roll multiple times, each roll representing a timespan of work.
All situational modifiers will probably go against the dice pool.

This is of course only IMHO.

If I remember some of the playtester comments (or was that from someone who played the demo at Origins?) it's supposed to be harder to hit now, but also much more difficult to actually soak the damage to nothing when you are hit... Which certainly suggests thresholds higher than one.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 02:02 PM Post #10
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	and i have a similar view about it, darkness (and i belive i posted it at page 7 in the weapon specialist thread or so). i dont get why people talk about applying a insane treshold to a ranged attack. if i want to fuck up a ranged attack i would go for less dice rather then applying a treshold.

mfb View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 02:06 PM Post #11
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.

Darkness

Aug 18 2005, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE (mmu1)

If I remember some of the playtester comments (or was that from someone who played the demo at Origins?) it's supposed to be harder to hit now, but also much more difficult to actually soak the damage to nothing when you are hit... Which certainly suggests thresholds higher than one.

Not neccecarily. Under circumstances your pool may be reduced considerably (speculation of course.) Just take a look at the Condition Monitor. With the Weapon Specialist having 8 Dice (i think)a -4 would reduce that easily to a 4. Statistically, and leaving Edge and other unknown factors aside for the moment she gains 1 Hit. Since all Combat related tests are Opposed now, as it seems IIRC, her opponent just needs 1 success himself to avoid the hit.
The issue of the damage reduction doesn't neccecarily hints at an higher threshold involved. Let's say, as we don't know jack about the weapon values, and so these Values are just guesses, an Ares Predator iV has a damag code of 9. I just assume here, that Armor subtracts from this (Flak Vest -3) leaving a 6. Now she rolls her Body (again: statistically) and has a lucky day by assuming 2 Hits.
Subtracting that again leaves 4. She just suffered 4 Hitboxes of damage without a higher Threshold.

booklord

Aug 18 2005, 02:19 PM

Post #13

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QUOTE

It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters

The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 02:31 PM Post #14
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	and dont forget that it was stated that when armor fully absorbs damage done it will convert said damage to stun rather then just having it vanish. and there is allso a stat for armor penetration. im guessing it reduces the effectiveness of the armor by that amount for one attack. and mfb, to me a 1:3 chance reduction of hits sounds better for the playability of the game then a 100% reduction. atleast it gives the feel that you still have a chance. and isnt that the argument sabosect is trying to make? basicly, in combat you dont want to deal with absolutes, as that makes the fight boring and predictable. either i kill him or he kills me. what you want are people taking wounds, maybe panicing as they are near death, then using time on bandages and heal spells, getting behind cover and so on. when you dont fully know what will happen even when you have all the numbers it generates a more dynamic feel :P

Kagetenshi

Aug 18 2005, 02:54 PM

Post #15

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (mfb)

why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.

Indeed. It's only mildly worse to take away those three dice (all of them).

hobgoblin: threshold is better for maintaining possibility than removing dice unless maximum threshold is 1 (giving a 1/3 chance minimum of success, which would be silly), as you can still roll successes on those other two dice while you don't get that chance if they're taken away.

~J

Shadow_Prophet

Aug 18 2005, 03:15 PM

Post #16

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 18 2005, 09:06 AM)

why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.

Indeed. It's only mildly worse to take away those three dice (all of them).

hobgoblin: threshold is better for maintaining possibility than removing dice unless maximum threshold is 1 (giving a 1/3 chance minimum of success, which would be silly), as you can still roll successes on those other two dice while you don't get that chance if they're taken away.

~J

Well let me share with you some experiances from playing Exalted (which utilizes a system very close to what sr4's seems to be shaping up to be)

In exalted I have a dicepool like what you have in sr4 (atrib + skill in dice) and a fixed tn. There is also threshold, which for landing a attack is 1 (unless there is some power, or spell active that increases the threshold for some strange reason). Say my dice pool is 8 (4 stat 4 skill). The tn in exalted is 7 8 9 or 10 where 10's count as 2 sux, not rerolled (ofcourse using d10's). Now say i have a -1 wound penalty. So I only have 7 dice, and I want to make two attacks which subtracts more dice. So for my first attack i would roll 6 dice, and 5 dice for the second (assuming i'm not using powers which lend me more dice). Now I don't have realy great chances at success right there. Decent but not great. They ofcourse have the option to dodge, or parry, removing my success'. then to calculate dammage its left over sux + str + weapon damage - targets soak value = dice in damage minimum 1 (by the base system not power combat).

Now sr4 doesn't quite seem to have the exact same aproach, can't completely tell how combat will play out but. From having played Exalted for some time and experiancing what its like to loose 3-4 dice + on a roll, I can tell you, loosing dice in your pool can be cripling. Sure you may still be able to land the shot, but they've got a much much easier time to dodge and or parry.

And it still gives you that element of being able to make that lucky shot. If you're upping the threshold, you're crippling their chances, not just reducing them. Already they're taking a hit on their dicepools from things, and then you're going to make it even tougher in combat to even think of landing a hit? No increasing the threshold in combat is a horrible idea. Decreasing their dicepool is a better way to even things out and levi penalties.

Cheops

Aug 18 2005, 04:37 PM

Post #17

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QUOTE (booklord)

QUOTE

It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters

The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.

Actually if the game is going more "street-level" this makes perfect sense. By having armorer be her highest skill she can actually build and repair her armor in between runs instead of having to skrimp and save money that she doesn't have to buy new stuff. Hopefully this is accompanied with better rules for building things. Secondly, if it is more gangsta then you don't want to be specialized. Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight. Better to be able to pick up any object, any gun, or just roll up the sleeves and be able to defend oneself than to run around looking for a specific weapon. This is why clubs and unarmed were so good in SR3--they covered a much wider range of situations so you weren't completely screwed (or better yet spurs and cyber-implant combat).

Cynic project

Aug 18 2005, 07:44 PM

Post #18

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QUOTE (Cheops)

QUOTE (booklord @ Aug 18 2005, 02:19 PM)

QUOTE

It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters

The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.

Actually if the game is going more "street-level" this makes perfect sense. By having armorer be her highest skill she can actually build and repair her armor in between runs instead of having to skrimp and save money that she doesn't have to buy new stuff. Hopefully this is accompanied with better rules for building things. Secondly, if it is more gangsta then you don't want to be specialized. Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight. Better to be able to pick up any object, any gun, or just roll up the sleeves and be able to defend oneself than to run around looking for a specific weapon. This is why clubs and unarmed were so good in SR3--they covered a much wider range of situations so you weren't completely screwed (or better yet spurs and cyber-implant combat).

but shadowrun runners aren't gangtsa. They are paid to better than that. They are paid to be good enough to slid between the cracks. So wile the gun slinger even i a gang may not get a spific type of pistol.They are going to have a pistol, unless a plot device event takes weapons away.

I mean unless you play a character with less than a few hundred bucks on ammo you should not have to worry about running out between run.Now during a run sure. But really if you are such a N00B that you can't get ammo for your guns you are most likely dead anyways.

mmu1

Aug 18 2005, 08:35 PM

Post #19

Running Target

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QUOTE (Cheops)

Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight.

Real world "gangsters" and drug dealers have a "wide range of fighting skills"? Which real world is that?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 08:38 PM Post #20
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	This one. Gangster/drug dealer fighting skills: Having no idea how to use a gun but making up for it by pulling the trigger a lot 6 Having no idea how to use an edged weapon but making up for it by swinging it around a lot 6 Having no idea how to fight but usually making it up by being more muscular than a sizable portion of the populace 6 Getting their asses handed to them by most people who know what they're doing 6 ~J

warrior_allanon View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 08:44 PM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273	you know, after catching up with my reading (ie reading all the forum here), i REALLY dont like the looks of this....but i still take a wait and see attitude because if worse comes to worst, i can always use 4ed to run a live action game....no i'm serious here...

hyzmarca

Aug 18 2005, 08:47 PM

Post #22

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QUOTE (Cynic project)

I mean unless you play a character with less than a few hundred bucks on ammo you should not have to worry about running out between run.Now during a run sure. But really if you are such a N00B that you can't get ammo for your guns you are most likely dead anyways.

Not getting ammo for your guns isn't as much of a problem as not getting your guns.

Runners aren't likely to run out of ammo during a run or between runs. However, they are highly likely to be kidnaped by a mad AI and forced navigate a maze while being harassed by wave after wave of super-powered killbots with nothing to defend himself with but his wits and a peice of broken rebar.

Also, upscale clubs and resturants usually like for you to check your weapons at the door.

Ellery

Aug 19 2005, 12:58 AM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.

It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.

Critias

Aug 19 2005, 01:57 AM

Post #24

Freelance Elf

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QUOTE (Ellery)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.

It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.

Being hard to swallow hasn't kept them from ramming it down our throats like a nasty back-alley porn flick for, what, six months now?

Why should they stop now, on the eve of the ascension?

Shadow_Prophet

Aug 19 2005, 02:55 AM

Post #25

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Ellery)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.

It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.

Actualy if you think about it fixed tn DOES make it far simpler. You always, always know, when you roll the dice, which are hits. From a players stand point, you don't nessicarily need to know the threshold of success, just the modifiers to the dice pool.

The gm can tell you to roll a perception test. You roll the dice and you can tell him how many success you got. you don't need to know the threshold, makes it alot simpler in my eyes. And from having played exalted for as long as i have (since it came out) it realy realy does speed up the game itself. For both the gm and the players.

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