 "What is SR4" Demo, My booth demo in text format |
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 Aug 21 2005, 06:09 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583  |
fire -> Fire elemental, Salamander sky -> Air elemental, Slyph, Spirits of the Sky earth -> Earth elemental, Gnome, Spirits of the Land water -> Water elemental, Undine, Spirit of the Waters ????-> Manitous Man -> Spirits of man Beast -> ??????? Beast appears to be new. ( and how domain rules work them is a mystery to me ) And Hermetics able to summon spirits of Man also appears to be new. did I miss anything? |
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Aug 21 2005, 06:09 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
Hey Bull thanks for the info. It's what we were all clamoring for months and months ago. Just enough to calm at least some of my fears, and give me a little to think about until I can get my copy.
:D |
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Aug 21 2005, 06:52 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Yah, how does domain work? |
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Aug 21 2005, 07:01 AM
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#29
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think they did away with domain restrictions now. I'd have to read more carefully, though. It appears that conjuring is much more homogenized, in that any tradition can summon spirits "spontaneously" like Shamans and any tradition can bond spirits like Hermetics. Also, Shamans do not automatically get totems (it's a special Edge called "Mentor Spirit", which implies that Hermetics can get it as well).
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Aug 21 2005, 07:38 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Cool! I think this opens the door for a lot of more roleplaying in magic! Any rule about requiring something to summon? Or is it all free now (AKA no insense to get an air elemental?) I hate to use a DnD term, but no material components? |
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Aug 21 2005, 07:50 AM
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#31
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
It appears that summoning a spirit (Spontaneous summoning, like the old nature spirits) uses a Complex Action, while binding a spirit (binding an elemental) costs 500 nuyen per force point. You have to summon a spirit first before you bind it. The gear section, however, says that conjuring materials for binding a spirit costs 1,500 nuyen per force point. There are two mentions of the 500 nuyen per Force Point in the actual description of binding, so I'm not sure which is the typo, but I'm leaning toward the listing in the gear section to be wrong.
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Aug 21 2005, 07:52 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Do spirits get irate when bound? Familars created in the same way? |
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Aug 21 2005, 08:00 AM
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#33
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
They can get irate, especially if you roll a glitch. I'd imagine that there would be a lot of roleplaying opportunities for this type of relationship. No rules for Ally Spirits at all in this book. |
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Aug 21 2005, 08:10 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
So, are they both charisma linked, or is one of them intelgence linked? Like you talk the spirit into giving you a favor, but you trap it in a bond? |
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Aug 21 2005, 11:00 AM
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#35
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The roll for Summoning is an opposed test of Magic + Summoning vs. the Spirit's Force. Drain is equal to twice the Spirit's hits.
The roll for Binding is an opposed test of Magic + Binding vs. the Spirit's Force x 2 (binding is harder). Drain is equal to twice the Spirit's hits. Neither are linked to Logic or Charisma, although your GM may apply modifiers based on roleplaying and situation (perhaps give you extra dice based on a Charisma test, with extra dice equal to the number of hits, or if you take a long time with lots of burning incense and a boring ritual, give you extra dice based on a Logic test), but that would be your GM's call. |
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Aug 21 2005, 01:28 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Could it be that you need the 1500 :nuyen: /FP materials which are not expendable (like the old Lodge), and then an extra 500 :nuyen: /FP of expendable stuff every time you bind a spirit? P.S. The more and more i hear the more i think Trolls and such are not going to be as limited as mages as in past editions. |
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Aug 21 2005, 01:59 PM
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#37
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
drain equal to 2 x spirit hits? :eek: sounds like the number of high level free spirits may well increase in the times ahead :rotfl: |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:02 PM
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#38
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A Will 6 caster with no Stun can take 11 boxes. That's a lot of hits, like an average of 33 dice (unless the Spirit gets to use Edge :vegm: ). I assume a mage gets to soak drain somehow? |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:03 PM
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#39
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Shamans use Magic + Charisma to soak drain. Hermetics use Magic + Logic.
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Aug 21 2005, 02:08 PM
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#40
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so basicly the mage punch logical holes in the spirits mental assualt? :rotfl: |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:19 PM
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#41
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
More like your memorized formulae, rigid mental procedural structure, and your ability to calculate variables quickly bolsters your sheer grit and willpower so you sustain less damage from the drain of magical activitie. But you know, whatever... it really doesn't matter mechanics-wise. |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:41 PM
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#42
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
or maybe the shaman see dissonance/bad notes in the magical flow so that he can apply his own to defuse or deflect the blow, while the mage see logical weaknesses so that he can push the right spots to have the attack fall apart.
two ways of looking at it, same basic outcome :P |
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Aug 21 2005, 02:55 PM
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#43
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
This is assuming that drain is from the spirit "fighting" the summoner, which is true in the case of Banishing, but not necessarily true in the task of summoning or binding (although being bound may not sit right with free-thinking sapient beings of mana). It could be a negotiation, with a Shaman trying to cajole and beg a catlike Spirit of Man to help him for a longer period of time (promising bribes of cream and rotted meat), or a Hermetic having a debate with a "projection of his unconscious psyche, made manifest in mana".
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Aug 21 2005, 03:55 PM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ah, that's how they avoid the double weighting from Will regarding Stun drain. I think that still sounds better for characters with a penalty in the attribute associated with their tradition than in SR3. It also seems to give Shamans a slight edge in Conjuring as i seem to remember the number of spirits you have under your control is related to your Cha. |
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Aug 21 2005, 04:34 PM
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#45
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
I guess this part about drain will be the first thing subject to house ruling in my games ... I would have prefered to see different attributes additionally to willpower based upon the type of magic used instead of personal tradition (e.g. Logic for Spellcasting and Charisma for Conjuring) ... Also makes me wonder how that "tradition" build system is going to work out: I'll have to decide which attribute will affect drain. Let's say we have a "Wujen" ... Drain like shamans or like a hermetic? Negative point on my current list ... |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:05 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
One of the characters in the group I GM is a Fox Shapeshifter Wujen. I got the feeling I'll be making a lot of this character conversion up. However given that this character is more a monk-style mediatation type I think I can discount Logic right away. I'm sort of split between Charisma or Intuition as the attribute which will affect conjuring drain. I'll decide once I actually get the book. I suggest you do the same with any wujen characters you've got. Make your choice over which stat seems appropriate. Shamans, Houngan : Charisma Hermetics, Tir Na Nog Path magicians : Logic Wujen : Intuition ( I'm liking the intuition Wujen idea more and more, now that I think about it. So Unless there's a substantial reason why not then that is the direction I'm going. ) |
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Aug 21 2005, 05:17 PM
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#47
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
At first glance, Intuition would be where I'd lean for many of the Asian traditions too, though not all of them. Charisma would probably work better for the early folk traditions (Shinto, Bon, etc.) and I could see Logic being used for some traditions like Neo-Confucianism.
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Aug 24 2005, 11:45 PM
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#48
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
"bump" :)
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Aug 25 2005, 01:33 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 6-May 03 Member No.: 4,546 |
You're an admin and you bumped the thread by posting *bump*.
Only you Bull, only you. - Jackal |
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Aug 25 2005, 06:23 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,640 |
Bull, Can I have you're permisiion to steal this and use it for an Intro to SR4 spiel at a local con we got comming up in october?
www.gamercon.com <-----------Shameless plug for my friend. I wanted to do the Intro to SR4 demo's there, but dont even have my copy yet, and wanted to get on as much of a head start getting this down as possable. |
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