In the "Hits" of the night..., What about them Options

[chevalier_neon]

I was wondering about "hits"...
My question is in fact, basically, is it considered any action to be a success with one hit ?
Because when you have someone with a dice pool of 6, even if he has been badly hurt (-3), he will still be able to have one hit on his dicepool...
I think I would have like some of the modifiers like the ones I mentionned above to be hit modifiers, and not only dices modifiers...

[hahnsoo]

There's also Threshold. Easy tasks have a threshold of 1, and it scales in difficulty (typically up to 4 to 6, based on the task). Threshold numbers mean that you have to get that minimum amount of hits in order to succeed. Net hits are any hits that are above the threshold number. For example, Quickdrawing a pistol has a threshold of 3, so it requires 3 hits to do successfully.

Note that in your example above, Edge can be used to augment the roll, thus giving you more dice to potentially get more hits.

[chevalier_neon]

Thnaks for your quick answer and all the details you are giving on the forum.
My question was more meaning : it is really too easy to success in SR4 (at least at first glance, as I don't own the book... yet)... But his might come as we didn't have any example about threshold that might be needed to success... But your "quick drawing" example make me feel less worried...
From what I can see, SR4 is really fullfilling all my wishes, and seem to answer correctly to a lot of SR3 flaws...
However, I still need to get the book (I hope that post services won't screw up) in order to have my own made feeling...
But thanks anyway for your reply.

[hobgoblin]

treshold is one nice tool for the GM that wants to time how long something takes. basicly you rule that any test takes x amount of time and set a treshold. then you could basicly count the number of tests have to be done to get the number of hits needed for the treshold.

and look out for the number of glitches rolled while at it :vegm:

[hahnsoo]

[chevalier_neon]

I know that Hobgobelin... I am perfectly at ease with those systems... But that is my point... hits are normally used to scale an action... which was meaning for me that a Joe average, with 6 dices in his pool, even on the treshold of death could still fight quiet effecienctly (he would loose only one hit compared to his full dice pool)... But from what Hahnsoo said, hits are not used only to determine how long would take an action, which is a good thing...
And I keep in mind the glitch rule, just that honestly for some basic action, there shouldn't be any chances to glitch... or at least that you don't face the same kind of consequences...
I have the feeling that in this edition, they are using the "at the discretion of the GM" quiet often...

[hahnsoo]

There are two things that address your concerns that I can think of:
1) The combat attack test is an opposed test. For Ranged Combat, it is typically Agility + Ranged Combat skill vs. the target's Reaction. Defender wins on ties. Thus, you need net successes to hit and do damage. This is before the damage resistance test. While your average Joe Schmoe at the brink of death may have 2 or 3 dice to roll and may get 1 hit, the target probably also can roll 2 or 3 dice (or more) on the Reaction test and probably will tie the attacker.
2) There is an "automatic hit" mechanic, where you trade 4 Dice Pool for 1 Automatic Hit, but you can only do this in low stress (read: non-Combat) situations where you aren't under any time pressure and the task is relatively easy (Having a whole day to prepare a speech, searching around a room for forensic evidence, doing a data search on non-sensitive information, etc.).

[chevalier_neon]

Thanks Hahnsoo, I was forgetting this Reaction from the target/victim thing...
I guees that in the end, I will have to play to really figure out if the system is well balanced... But I am quiet optimistic !

[mfb]

don't targets beyond Short range have higher thresholds? medium is 2, long is 3, extreme is 4, etc.?

[chevalier_neon]

Actually, combat don't really bother me... I think the range will be translated with dice modifiers, not hits. I think this will be ok in the end.
Just for any other action, I don't want someone with only one dice having a chance to success.

[mfb]

i would be surprised if range were handled with die modifiers.

[chevalier_neon]

On the other hand, one hit=-3 on a dice modifying scale, right ?
This is also one of my question... why not using the hits only for action settled in the duration, and dice modifiers for everything else ? Or is it the case ?
Could someone try to explain me what would be the difference... I am too tired to think efficiently ;)

[Kagetenshi]

[hahnsoo]

[mfb]

wow. that's... wow. blood pressure rising, heart attack or hulk-like transformation imminent.

[blakkie]

[hahnsoo]

[mfb]

there are problems with it. you have to be really careful, or it unbalances completely. it seems to me, however, that those problems would be easier to deal with than the problems inherent in die modifiers. but having never tried it, i couldn't say for sure.

some of the details are surprising. the whole is, as predicted, not. i wish i'd been wrong about that.

[OSUMacbeth]

[mfb]

no. the scope thing actually makes sense. the die penalties, though? ugh. wow.

[Ellery]

In case anyone is having trouble unpacking "ugh, wow", here's the problem.

Someone who is a bit above average in stat and skill (8 dice, let's say--about standard for an archetype who has firearms as one of their strengths) fires upon targets at different range. (We'll assume a non-dodging target.)

At short range, they hit 96% of the time.
At medium range, they hit 94% of the time.
At long range, they hit 92% of the time.
At extreme range, they hit 87% of the time.
Past that they hit 0% of the time.

That's really weird--firstly, hitting someone hundreds of meters away is nearly as easy as hitting someone right next to you, and secondly there's a hugely abrupt drop from near-perfect shooting to a shot being impossible.

SR3 with top-of-the-line vision mag had a similar weirdness, but SR4 makes it apply to everyone.

It removes a lot of the distance considerations from tactical planning (save for things like setting up snipers who are out of range of all other small arms fire). One wonders whether it's worthwhile to even have different ranges any more. I don't think you'd lose much by houseruling it away (aside from "in range" where you can hit, and "out of range" where you can't).

[mfb]

yeah. the only difference between hitting a target 2m away and hitting a target 350m away is a fairly mild bit of luck. people who haven't trained in shooting might not understand how far divorced from reality that is.

[SL James]

I've gone shooting exactly once and know that's insane.

[blakkie]

[Penta]

Yeah. I'm thinking for a minute...Some of these may seem broken in their lonesome, but has everybody considered what vision modifiers, cover, etc? would do?

They're all really easy to forget.