 SWAT Armour |
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 Sep 19 2003, 03:27 AM
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#1
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
Are there any published stats for the type of body armour/vests that you generally see police SWAT teams waring - the large black chunky kind with the massive plates? Tried looking through the books and all the ones that looked promising had concealabilty ratings - and with the size of these things not very likely :) - and then it seemed to jump straight to security armour which is described as a full bodysuit. Thanks.
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Sep 19 2003, 03:29 AM
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#2
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
medium or heavy security armor just about fits your description, IMHO.
It doesn't even HAVE a concealibility. |
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Sep 19 2003, 03:34 AM
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#3
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I don't think the designers though about it. In the shadows there isn't much use for that kind of armor. You could always create it your self. I haven't seen it but you could peruse Rayguns website for ideas or somethign that would fit the bill.
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Sep 19 2003, 03:57 AM
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#4
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Considering we have stats for Riot Shields, there is a good chance they thought of it ;) Medium Security Armor, IMO. |
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Sep 19 2003, 04:13 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 17-August 03 From: Santee, CA... It's in San Diego Member No.: 5,503 |
Look for the old "Lone Star" source book from 1994. There's easily updated stats for the armor and lots of info on SWAT teams and FTRs Fast Response Teams which runners are far more likely to encounter. Lone Star and Knight Errant have switched places on who's more effective. The other groups like Thugs with guns are more violent and dumbed down versions.
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Sep 19 2003, 05:05 AM
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#6
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
In the real world, it's usually NIJ Level IIIA (will stop .44 Magnum 240 grain SJHP @ 1400 fps) with Level IV plates over the vitals, front and back (will stop 30-06 166 grain AP @ 2850 fps). I treat IIIA as 7/5 and IV as 9/7 hardened.
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Sep 19 2003, 07:58 AM
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#7
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Would that be the equivalent to the armor worn by Blade's crew in Blade 2?
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Sep 22 2003, 03:27 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 17-July 03 Member No.: 4,962 |
Raygun, that's 9/7 hardened for the whole combo, right? 'Cause I just can't see those two values combined. (Not to mention the penalties...)
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Sep 22 2003, 04:12 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Oh man, superhuman strength, and no body heat to speak of. Talk about the perfect situation for body armor... |
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Sep 22 2003, 04:59 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
I don't know that I buy that riot armor stopping a light machine gun cold (which 9 hardened would do, right?). |
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Sep 22 2003, 05:33 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Only part of the armor is Level IV. Imagine something about the length and width of a school textbook on your chest and back. Only those parts can withstand rifle-caliber rounds. The rest can stop heavy SMG fire.
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Sep 22 2003, 05:51 PM
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#12
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
From what I have seen them in Riot armor and SWAT armor are not really the same thing.
And while im at it, the reinforced armor sections dont seem to be just center torso but reinforcing their torso on their leading side and along the forward facing forearms. When you hold a rifle with your right hand and point it your right forearm underside and left forearm underside are what is facing your target, reinforcement there is what i'm talking about. It seems to be a strap on layer and thicker than the rest, but I have never talked to them about it, so that may just be IIIa, it just looks a lot thicker than the rest. damnit, Safariland used to have a picture of what I'm talking about and now I can't find it. |
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Sep 22 2003, 06:55 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
http://www.tacticalshop.com/product.asp?0=...208&1=324&3=620
In SR terms, Riot armor tends to be more Impact heavy, rather than Ballistic. The idea being in a riot, you're more likely to get bludgeoned and pelted with bricks and bottles than getting shot. SWAT units tend to wear single chest pieces to cover center mass with the intention of stopping incoming fire and not protecting against a wild melee. To confuse the issue, smaller departments that can't afford "proper" riot gear will kit their officers in what they have on hand, usually SWAT-issue vests since some protection is better than nothing and they probably get a bulk discount when buying. Additional accessories can include: shields and gas masks, although batons are invariably standard issue. -Siege |
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Sep 23 2003, 04:53 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
Yeah, "proper" riot gear tends to look a lot bulkier and more impressive. I can definitely see it being, if not more impact protection, nearly equal to ballistic protection. Just take a look at these two pictures I snagged from the web:
http://home.comcast.net/~kurukami/images/p...land/biggun.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~kurukami/images/p...ers_orjg114.jpg |
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Sep 23 2003, 02:48 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Nice pics Kurukami.
Looks like tactical catcher's gear. :) Seriously, though I think Kuru has it dead-on. The ballistic rating would be very low, but the impact rating would be very high. In the 2060s, riot cops now have to worry about orcs and trolls with baseball bats, not just angry teens. |
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Sep 23 2003, 05:34 PM
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#16
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, heavy security with helmet is 8/7, and given that the human avarage in sr is 3 it will work nicely as riot gear, add a shield and some stun weapons, maybe gasmasks and start popping neuro-stun and whats not at the crowd...
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Sep 23 2003, 07:02 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Heavy security armor?
Your typical threat range is from 4m Stun (Avg Human with bat) to 8m stun (Avg Troll with bat). Given the demographics, your range will more likely run 4m to 6m. An impact rating of 4 will keep that off just fine. If the crowd starts pulling guns, loitering drones with racks of gas grenades and SMGs firing gel rounds quickly convince the crowd that is a bad idea. |
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Sep 23 2003, 07:19 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Not to mention that rolling out heavy security armor is pretty damned expensive and, although not really reflected in game mechanics, taxing to the officers wearing it.
They may have some units in heavy armor on stand-by in case something gets nasty but I think it unlikely it would be deployed in force. Additionally, sec armor makes a nastier statement in general than riot gear and most riots probably will have at least some media coverage. Although I suppose it will ultimately depend on where the riot happens and who happens to be rioting. Sorry, rambling just a tad. -Siege |
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Sep 23 2003, 07:31 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Security armor implies you want to kill a crowd. Riot armor implies you want to control and restrain a crowd.
Big difference to the media. |
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Sep 23 2003, 07:37 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 897 Joined: 26-February 02 From: TIME OUT Member No.: 1,989 |
thats why you put smiley faces on the vest!
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Sep 23 2003, 08:20 PM
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#21
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
...And Vendetta Armor implies you track down and kill their families... :grinbig:
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Sep 23 2003, 08:26 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
You just know someone out there is making custom armor in the form of fantasy-medieval replete with horns, skulls and assorted knick-knacks.
Maybe some of the richer go-gangs? Sorry, armor-tangent. -Siege |
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Sep 23 2003, 09:28 PM
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#23
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I don't remember exactly what it looked like, but if it looked like the kind of stuff that police tactical teams wear, then yes.
I use a hit location system that makes defining the two different kinds of armor a bit more practical. The 9/7 hardened armor plate covers a relatively small area. Like Ed-209a said, about the same area as a textbook over your vital organs, front and back. They also weight quite a bit. If you want to use Shadowrun's full-body-coverage armor rules, I'd say use Heavy Security Armor (7/5) with a helmet (8/7), like hobgoblin said. I guess I should also mention that the rest of the body armor that SWAT teams usually wear covers the upper body only, occasionally the groin as well. Ballistic helmets are also common. This is because body armor tends to resrict movement and the ability to move quickly means that you can better avoid being hit altogether. Also, the vast majority of hits to extremities are non-fatal, assuming that the officer gets medical attention quickly, which they usually do.
The kind of armor worn during riots and the kind that tactical teams wear is different. I think that's been explained pretty well by Seige and Kurukami already. NIJ Level VI plate armor is designed to stop conventional armor piercing bullets used in the 30-06 and 7.62x51mm NATO rounds (except M993) and anything else up to that. So yes, plate armor can and will stop light machine gun fire outright. There is a point at which any armor will fail, however. And again, that plate armor covers a relatively small area. The flexible ballistic fabric body armor that makes up the majority of tactical body armor will not stop most rifle rounds. |
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Sep 23 2003, 10:35 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,985 |
So, armored vest with plates plus security helmet, then? (6/4) Or does it cover the arms as well, making it an armor jacket plus security helmet? (7/5) In Shadowrun, a department with enough money would probably add formfit as well, bringing the total to 8/4 or 9/5 after layering. |
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Sep 24 2003, 01:30 AM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Keeping in mind that Shadowrun doesn't use a location-hit system, sure.
Keep in mind though that layering armor is (generally speaking) a bad idea because it impedes movement as per Raygun's observation on the armoring of SWAT units. The idea that form-fitting armor doesn't count as a layer is valid by canon but lacks a certain practicality. Have you ever watched hockey players suit up? Can you imagine spending all day in that kind of kit? Not to mention running after suspects or moving quickly. I would probably kit most officers out in a basic armor jacket and helmet (1/2), allowing for the more "over the top" aspect of Shadowrun. Anything else would just suck while standing in the sun, directing traffic. Granted, I might see SWAT or similar special response units investing in form fitting armor if they weren't already issued plate sec armor. -Siege |
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