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> Wired networks in a wireless world
booklord
post Aug 21 2005, 06:00 PM
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So let's see if I got this right.

The matrix crashes.

A new wireless one is constructed in its place.

The otaku increase in number and evolve into Technomancers and show the ability to access this matrix through some sort of matrix telepathy.

Is it just me or would this cause a major rush by the corporations to go back to wired networks for their facilties? For security reasons?

Likewise for cyberware ( if rumors that technomancers can effect it as well are true ) Obviously corporations would take a strong look at giving their forces old-style cyberware that wasn't subject to any technomancer manipulation.
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blakkie
post Aug 21 2005, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (booklord)
So let's see if I got this right.

The matrix crashes.

A new wireless one is constructed in its place.

The otaku increase in number and evolve into Technomancers and show the ability to access this matrix through some sort of matrix telepathy.

Is it just me or would this cause a major rush by the corporations to go back to wired networks for their facilties? For security reasons?

Likewise for cyberware ( if rumors that technomancers can effect it as well are true ) Obviously corporations would take a strong look at giving their forces old-style cyberware that wasn't subject to any technomancer manipulation.

There are long, detailed threads about this from a long time back. At least 2 months. My search-fu isn't strong enough to find them though.
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mfb
post Aug 21 2005, 06:11 PM
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i don't think it'd cause any larger rush than the prevalence of hackers in general. that said, any corp infosec officer who doesn't make his high-end research lab a wired system, or at least a wireless system contained by Faraday cage, is an idiot.

and, really, in 2070, a wired system isn't necessarily going to be much more secure than a wireless system, unless you monitor the wired system very closely. all that has to happen is for some researcher to plug in his mp3 keychain player into your ultra-secure wired system, and all of the sudden, your ultra-secure wired system has grown a wireless access point.
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booklord
post Aug 21 2005, 07:01 PM
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Faraday cage?

In any event its basic security. Any security sub-system would only be accessible for secure jackpoints. Any secure research system would obviously have several security safeguards to prevent someone from making it accessible to the matrix.

For ultra-secure locations, I'd expect that a corp would not only use an isolated wired network, but would have jammers in place to prevent anyone from accessing the wireless network while inside the facility.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 21 2005, 07:07 PM
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Faraday cages block EMR.

~J
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Backgammon
post Aug 21 2005, 07:20 PM
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If I recall correctly my electricity course, all you need to do to build a Farraday cage is to "box" in the area with metal poles. The EMR shoots out, but makes a "force field" between the poles.

In any case, it's very very easy to do. Your computer case, for example, is a Farraday cage. You may google for more details.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 21 2005, 09:27 PM
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The SR4 solution is simpler... Wireless-blocking Paint. Yeah, Lead Paint. Great.
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mfb
post Aug 21 2005, 09:29 PM
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feed it to your kids!
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Wireknight
post Aug 21 2005, 09:33 PM
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It's not lead paint, and it's real, a paint containing aluminum and copper sold by an outfit called Force Field Wireless. However, it dulls (rather than stopping cold) radio frequencies, and does so for all of them, not just those that specifically carry data. I'm not familiar enough with metallurgy or optics to understand how hard it would be, with future advancements in material engineering, to create materials that inhibit only certain data-carrying wavelengths. Without that feature, it's more of a drawback than it is a boon.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 21 2005, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
feed it to your kids!

That would explain why these technomancers are living antennae, what with the high metal content. :) Okay, maybe not. But it's a better explanation than the one FanPro is giving.
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Wireknight
post Aug 21 2005, 09:34 PM
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Heh, as a fly on the wall for the technomancer discussion, the higher-ups essentially declared it to be so, and then told the writers to figure out why and how.
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Smed
post Aug 21 2005, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 21 2005, 04:27 PM)
The SR4 solution is simpler... Wireless-blocking Paint. Yeah, Lead Paint. Great.

Actually conductive Paint is not that much of a stretch. It does not take much thickness at all to block high frequency radio waves. Once you get past the skin depth for a given frequency, you've got a decent shield. There are already coatings on the market that can be applied for this very purpose. They are used today to make EMI shields in some consumer electronic products.
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Nyxll
post Aug 22 2005, 01:34 AM
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It is actually more efficient to wrap the outside of your house in tin foil, (note not aluminum) than to use any of these paints. Remember to use copper screens on your windows. The width of the holes must be less than the wavelength you are trying to block. I am actually looking at ways to make my house into a faraday cage.

The problem with wireless is that what can be encoded can be decoded. You are vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. This will not improve in the future. As encryption gets more sophisticated so does decryption. It only takes listening to 5 or so million packets to figure out your encryption key with wep. Wireless transmissions will never be secure as long someone can eavesdrop. If you have a point to point beam, where no one can listen in ... then it could be secure, but if someone else can listen to your signal, you are going to get hacked, or duped.

A wired system IS going to be more secure, as you need to gain physical access to the network. Wireless waves do not just stop midair. With a wired system you can also trace data packets to find out where someone accessed. Much easier than trying to locate someone around a broadcast node.


QUOTE
Heh, as a fly on the wall for the technomancer discussion, the higher-ups essentially declared it to be so, and then told the writers to figure out why and how.


Someone should have brained the higher ups. just because someone got a wireless laptop and router at home doesn't mean it will make your game cooler. Whoever thought this up and implemented it should have a Panther Assault Cannon enima.

Edited:
[sarc]Oh, and of course infrastructure, we know that wireless nodes repeating across the continent is infinitely faster than the fibre optics, which transmit at the speed of light and suffer no distortion[/sarc]




This post has been edited by Nyxll: Aug 22 2005, 01:39 AM
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 22 2005, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (Nyxll)
As encryption gets more sophisticated so does decryption.

This is not remotely true. Encryption by its very nature advances faster than decryption, provided that the people designing encryption aren't idiotic.

~J
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Nyxll
post Aug 22 2005, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE
This is not remotely true. Encryption by its very nature advances faster than decryption, provided that the people designing encryption aren't idiotic.


It absolutely is true. Look at all the vulnerabilities and exploits out there. I am sure that most of this stuff is hacked in labs way before the public finds out. Wireless sniffers and hacks were out within weeks of new technology. The tech takes years to develop, and the exploits, decryption and hacks take weeks possibly months.

The two a linked like ying and yang

Please tell me if encryption is so secure, who come wireless is not yet? it has been out for years. Man in the middle attacks are a vulnerability. Even VPN tunnels are vulnerable.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 22 2005, 01:56 AM
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Wireless encryption breaks my "provided the people designing encryption aren't idiotic" requirement.

Take GPG. Introduced in '99, one minor weakness discovered since then. Or we could go with something that's already been broken, like SHA-1 hashing (I know it's redundant, but someone might not know what it is): published in 1995, broken February of this year. Even then, it isn't trivial—they reduced the number of operations required to find a collision from 2^80 to 2^69.

Edit: this has apparently been reduced to 2^63 within the past week.

As for why wireless is still vulnerable, I honestly don't know this one but my guess is that security is sacrificed for inexpensive hardware and ease-of-use. Man-in-the-middle attacks of the information-falsifying variety are solvable with public-key cryptography and encryption strong enough to defy cryptanalysis.

~J
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Nyxll
post Aug 22 2005, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE
Wireless encryption breaks my "provided the people designing encryption aren't idiotic" requirement.

Take GPG. Introduced in '99, one minor weakness discovered since then. Or we could go with something that's already been broken, like SHA-1 hashing (I know it's redundant, but someone might not know what it is): published in 1995, broken February of this year. Even then, it isn't trivial—they reduced the number of operations required to find a collision from 2^80 to 2^69.

Edit: this has apparently been reduced to 2^63 within the past week.

As for why they're still vulnerable, I honestly don't know this one but my guess is that security is sacrificed for inexpensive hardware and ease-of-use.


You have to remember that not the entire transmission is encoded this securely. Only the key is transmitted that securely. The bulk of the communication is done with a lower level of encryption. I took a VPN course for our firewall, ( a week of paid time off basically) ... there are 2 levels of encryption used. the more secure is used to decide how to communicate, then the lower is used for the bulk of communication. It takes a great deal of resources to encrypt and decrypt data.

This makes me ask, if there is a new paradigm shift or encryption method how does an otaku adapt, or is this part of the fading?
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 22 2005, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE
You have to remember that not the entire transmission is encoded this securely. Only the key is transmitted that securely. The bulk of the communication is done with a lower level of encryption. I took a VPN course for our firewall, ( a week of paid time off basically) ... there are 2 levels of encryption used. the more secure is used to decide how to communicate, then the lower is used for the bulk of communication.

And this is why VPNs are weak. There's nothing requiring the lower level of encryption to be used, people just don't want to deal with the consequences of full high encryption (as above, ease-of-use and required hardware).
QUOTE
It takes a great deal of resources to encrypt and decrypt data.

Absolutely. This is a part of the price that is to be paid. The computational price of encryption/decryption with the key is decreasing today, though, while the computational price of cracking encryption is skyrocketing. Nothing short of quantum cryptography will change that (or, for each individual method, cryptographic weaknesses being found).

~J
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Ellery
post Aug 22 2005, 05:23 AM
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I'm pretty sure you can do good encryption with computational costs that scale somewhere between (key length) and (key length)^2; decryption for an authorized user takes a similar amount of time. However, to break good encryption by brute force, the costs scale as 2^(key length).

With even a moderately fast computer, it doesn't make sense to use keys less than 512 bits in length. The SHA-1 style attack might reduce the search space from 2^512 to 2^400 or something--still something that would require the computational power of the universe to crack by trial and error.
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nezumi
post Aug 22 2005, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (Nyxll)
It is actually more efficient to wrap the outside of your house in tin foil, (note not aluminum)

Silly question, why not aluminum? Would Al still at least work for weaker devices like the whatsit chips stores put on products to keep them from being stolen?
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Nyxll
post Aug 22 2005, 02:59 PM
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Tinfoil is much more effective at blocking EMR than aluminum. Aluminum tends to get penetrated too easily. If I could pull off the brick and had 15K around I would also consider galvanized steel.
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booklord
post Aug 22 2005, 03:43 PM
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How about just plain jamming the wireless signal?

Runners are detected in a secure facility. The security office decides their system has been compromised and hits a switch which sends a jamming signal throughout the complex. Suddenly all wireless matrix activity becomes so much static and access to the system is only accessible to those who can physically jack in.

Any reason that wouldn't work in SR4?

( Let's assume that the facility holds the data from MCT testing their latest pharmacudical by using black op teams to spike the city water of Portland, Tir Tairngire. In other words something that would warrant ultra-extreme security measures )
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 22 2005, 03:45 PM
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Jamming prevents your own communications as well. It's a good emergency response, but not something you're going to want to use for prevention.

~J
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 03:46 PM
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that kind of thinking is similar to wondering why hosts dont have a physical kill switch on their connection. to much attacks and you just pull the plug on the outside connection...
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booklord
post Aug 22 2005, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE
that kind of thinking is similar to wondering why hosts dont have a physical kill switch on their connection. to much attacks and you just pull the plug on the outside connection...


Well if the kill switch is computer controlled then the decker simply has to disable the kill switch. I seem to recall reading in one SR3 book te only way you could be sure was to have a living person stationed at the plug.

But even then, widespread jamming may not be necessary. Wouldn't it be possible to selectively jam the frequencies of the wireless network?
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