Wired networks in a wireless world

Wired networks in a wireless world

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nezumi

Aug 23 2005, 10:56 AM

Post #51

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (Nerbert)

More to the point, I don't see why "legends in their own time" ever existed at all (I don't mean that they shouldn't exist, just that they shouldn't necessarily be any more then marginally better then everyone else.). In the real world people like FastJack and Cpt. Chaos are legendary precisely because of the nature of Legends. Someone did something somehow and the details get lost in the bragadoccio.

I'll bet you tell little kids Santa Claus doesn't exist too!! *sob* I love you, Captain Chaos!

Seriously though, Capt. Chaos filled a valuable niche and it certainly makes sense that he was legendary. I mean imagine if DSF were illegal and Adam was our hard core hacker admin. Right there you have a 'legend' in the making, and that's just on a very small scale. It certainly makes sense that if he got 20,000 new members and spent 24/7 doing computer stuff he'd get pretty darn good, far better than anyone here, at running a secret server and other secret internet stuff.

*Sigh* counterveil, you make me sad. Our computer security guy was asking someone to explain the difference between a CD/DVD ROM and a CD-burner/DVD ROM. It would make me cry if I didn't actually do most of the technical work for him. However, in general you may find your 'defense in depth', as typified by a DMZ, has become more popular and will continue to become more popular as time goes on. There are routers now which are affectively a DMZ with a few lights and plugs.

mfb View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 12:31 PM Post #52
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	nerbert, you're ignoring the fact that fastjack has been doing his thing since the Crash, at least. someone who can maintain fastjack's level of badassery (anybody know is real name? no? that's pretty damn spectacular in an age where looking up someone's name is TN 4, no?) for three decades is way, way, way more than 'marginally' better than everyone else.

hobgoblin

Aug 23 2005, 01:58 PM

Post #53

panda!

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QUOTE (counterveil)

As much as anyone says Defense in Depth (or the "castle theory", or "layered security", or whatever you want to call it) is dead, it will always be applicable just as it has been since the first wooden stakes were put up around sheep.

bingo. attackers that only do it out of boredom, your avarage script kiddie, will stop the moment his downloaded tools dont bite.

a more determined attacker will either rebuild said tools or make some new ones based on available data of known exploits.

but the truely determined attacker will go looking for new attacks when the known ones failed. going thru a checklist of known lazy coding flaws.

so some of the best kind of defenses are the ones that have atleast 3 layers, where only two of them are in contact at any one time.

still, any defense designed and maintained by a human can be overcome by a human. thats just the way it is. there is no 100% security. i think the best you can get is about 75%...

hobgoblin

Aug 23 2005, 02:02 PM

Post #54

panda!

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QUOTE (mfb)

nerbert, you're ignoring the fact that fastjack has been doing his thing since the Crash, at least. someone who can maintain fastjack's level of badassery (anybody know is real name? no? that's pretty damn spectacular in an age where looking up someone's name is TN 4, no?) for three decades is way, way, way more than 'marginally' better than everyone else.

thats why you dont stat a legend :rotfl:

Nikoli View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 02:20 PM Post #55
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Well, getting back to wireless security, they already had the tech in as early as 3rd edition (might be earlier, but I don't have the 2nd or 1st edition equivalents of the Seattle Survival Guide. The walls that self-dust through electro-static charge should be sufficient to shield errent wireless signals.though I doubt the good folks doing dev work knew that when they wrote it.

BitBasher

Aug 23 2005, 04:05 PM

Post #56

Traumatizing players since 1992

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QUOTE (Rolemodel @ Aug 22 2005, 02:42 PM)

QUOTE (BitBasher)

Yep, and that's what, two dice better (if that) than a starting jackass can get for just penciling it in on a character sheet.

...And years of acquiring resources, contacts, equipment, etc.

Which, apparently, can add up.

It almost sours my stomach to use a 3rd edition D&D example, but you'll note that a +5 l337-Longsword-Of-Floofy-Elfishness is alot better than your run of the mill Shortsword.

Especially if you know some people that can enchant it with Floofy-Elf slaying.

SR4 equivalent? Whiz Deck-erm-Hacking gear, plenty of pull inside the shadows, a dominatingly powerful reputation, and years of knowledge acquiring the, as they say, tricks of the trade.

Now use melee combat as an example, or pistols... You know, skills not determined by equipment, which decking and (maybe) rigging are an exception to. :)

EDIT: adding relevance to the wireless security debate... I dont doubt wireless would be common, but It would never be used on the most secure systems as it offers an extra vulerability without any real tangible benefit to outweigh the disadvantages.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 04:09 PM Post #57
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Rigging is a loose exception. A VCR-3 and insanely low handling vehicles make up for a certain amount, but eventually you need Reaction and skill. ~J

Rolemodel

Aug 23 2005, 05:00 PM

Post #58

Moving Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

Now use melee combat as an example, or pistols... You know, skills not determined by equipment, which decking and (maybe) rigging are an exception to. :)

Legend vs. Out-of-the-Box.

Our Legend will be armed with not only his exceptional talent in the field in question, but through his extensive experience will have gained complimentary knowledge and skill to suppliment this talent. Our Legend will have been able to build an impressive ring of contacts that only grows wider, and farther reaching with time. The influence our Legend holds in his circle will not only be tied directly to his skill, but also the reputation for -intelligently using this skill- on countless occaisions. Our Legend will have the resources to acquire technology years ahead of popular cutting edge. Our Legend will have the experience to know the best application of his skill, in any given situation.

Our Legend has proven himself time and time again.

Our Out-of-the-Box, then, based on pure ability, and raw natural talent will be able to perform close to the level of our Legend, if the footing were the same. Initially, however, that character will sacrifice general utility for this specialization. The complimentary knowledge will not be anywhere near as vast as the Legends. The social support structure will not be nearly as vast, and far reaching, and neither will our Out-of-the-Box example hold nearly as much sway or influence. The resources available, out of the box, will not even be close. And while, in raw skill, and raw ability, our competitor may come close to our Legend, they simply cannot hold the In-Character experience that a Legend holds, without first becoming one themself.

You would like a Melee-or-Pistols example?

LegendX, lengendary Street Samurai - Loaded to the gils with deltaware that exceed the limits currently available. Wired Reflexes that allow a ridiculous amount of actions. Genetic alteration that easily exceeds racial maximums. Wirelessly integrated combat utilities that degrade nearby systems deamed hostile, harness their processing power, and compromise their system. Targeting software that completely analyzes hostile composition, and automatically adjust to exploit for maximum effect. Armed with seamless firearms that, like his deltaware, have been customized completely to his persona in form and function from the cellular level and upwards. Nanoexplosive ammunition that is expelled from it's delivery source micrometers from a target, infiltrates their armor, and skin, and detonates inside their bodies.

And how does he have all that? Friends, resources, and years and years inside the game. He is, afterall, a Legend.

And our Out-of-the-Box: A man that, compared to his peers, can pick up an Ares Predator IV and fire it amazingly well, but compared to a Legend, is not nearly as versatile, nor nearly as well equipped.

I believe in that afforementioned example, more than merely skill will determine who is legendary, and who is not. So, while skill is certainly a large aspect of what makes a Legend, a Legend, you cannot blindly accept that there is not a bigger picture at work.

hahnsoo View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 05:23 PM Post #59
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014	The only way you can become a Legend is to kill the current Legend. Then lightning flies around and you experience the Quickening. "There can be only one!" - The Highlander "... joke like that." - My Gaming Group :)

SL James

Aug 23 2005, 05:47 PM

Post #60

Shadowrun Setting Nerd

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 02:31 PM)

nerbert, you're ignoring the fact that fastjack has been doing his thing since the Crash, at least. someone who can maintain fastjack's level of badassery (anybody know is real name? no? that's pretty damn spectacular in an age where looking up someone's name is TN 4, no?) for three decades is way, way, way more than 'marginally' better than everyone else.

thats why you dont stat a legend :rotfl:

Didn't

Apparently, the idea that "you give something stats and you can beat/kill it" doesn't apply to most legends in the shadows anymore.

Blacken

Aug 23 2005, 05:56 PM

Post #61

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Wireless encryption breaks my "provided the people designing encryption aren't idiotic" requirement.

Take GPG. Introduced in '99, one minor weakness discovered since then. Or we could go with something that's already been broken, like SHA-1 hashing (I know it's redundant, but someone might not know what it is): published in 1995, broken February of this year. Even then, it isn't trivial—they reduced the number of operations required to find a collision from 2^80 to 2^69.

Edit: this has apparently been reduced to 2^63 within the past week.

As for why wireless is still vulnerable, I honestly don't know this one but my guess is that security is sacrificed for inexpensive hardware and ease-of-use. Man-in-the-middle attacks of the information-falsifying variety are solvable with public-key cryptography and encryption strong enough to defy cryptanalysis.

~J

SHA-1, just like MD5, isn't encryption. They're finite data sets that are used to represent infinite data. Of course there are going to be collisions.

Nyxll

Aug 23 2005, 06:00 PM

Post #62

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Rolemodel)

Our Legend ...

OT:
A legend only has the benefit of reputation, and some Karma.

Any munchkin can often mix/max their char to be more effective and skillful
than the typical "legend"

When it comes to a run, I do not care how well you are known, I care about
your skill level. Can you get the job done etc.

A Legend will have tonnes of contacts, but the GM wants the run to progress
so he/she will make things happen. A player with a good background story
and a few contacts will also be effective. Granted a legend will have a few
wizz toys he/she managed to pick up on a run, but not many. With min/maxers
you can stretch things a long way, and resourceful intelligent players will stretch
their char's abilities to match any legend.

Having a rep would mean you get jobs and are famous, there are plenty of legendary
people out there that are not heard of. I personally think street/public rep is dangerous. It makes you enemies and gets you unwanted attention. I would rather
be a prodigy than a legend any day.

/OT

Nerbert View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 06:15 PM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280	The simple fact of the matter is that, realistically, legends should all be retired.

hobgoblin

Aug 23 2005, 06:41 PM

Post #64

panda!

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QUOTE (SL James)

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 23 2005, 08:02 AM)

QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 02:31 PM)

nerbert, you're ignoring the fact that fastjack has been doing his thing since the Crash, at least. someone who can maintain fastjack's level of badassery (anybody know is real name? no? that's pretty damn spectacular in an age where looking up someone's name is TN 4, no?) for three decades is way, way, way more than 'marginally' better than everyone else.

thats why you dont stat a legend :rotfl:

Didn't

Apparently, the idea that "you give something stats and you can beat/kill it" doesn't apply to most legends in the shadows anymore.

what? just because they decided to put hard caps on skills and stats?

hahnsoo

Aug 23 2005, 06:43 PM

Post #65

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 23 2005, 01:41 PM)

what? just because they decided to put hard caps on skills and stats?

FastJack, Captain Chaos, Doc Raven, and Wolfgang Kies, among many others (SPD, etc.) have all been given an exact skill value in SR4 under the skill examples page. I think that's what he's referring to.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 06:44 PM Post #66
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	ugh, now thats a screwup indeed! still, isnt those people history anyways?

tisoz View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 06:45 PM Post #67
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	ahh, the mere mortals.

hahnsoo View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 06:52 PM Post #68
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014	Well... [ Spoiler ] FastJack is still alive (though he's a 71 year old dinosaur... I'm wondering if he ever went for that Leonization or if he's a spike baby elf). Can't say positively or negatively for Wolfgang Kies or Doc Raven. Captain Chaos is dead, died while trying to save Shadowland during the Crash 2.0

Rolemodel

Aug 23 2005, 06:54 PM

Post #69

Moving Target

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QUOTE

A legend only has the benefit of reputation, and some Karma.

Uh-Kinda-But-Not-Really-Even-At-All.

QUOTE

Any munchkin can often mix/max their char to be more effective and skillful than the typical "legend"

Absolutely... not. Unless you replace the word "legend" with "not-legend". Inwhich case, then yes.

QUOTE

When it comes to a run, I do not care how well you are known, I care about your skill level. Can you get the job done etc.

Which is exactly why a Legend, as already mentioned, is exactly the figure for the job, under all circumstances. You don't become one without, as you said, getting the job done. That said, from an OOC and purely statistical value, a Legend ought to not only have numbers on their sheet to back up their status, but also all the little bells and whistles, and frills of the fray to go with it.

(I don't know what frills of the fray are, but it really sounded cool there.)

QUOTE

A Legend will have ton(ne)s of contacts, but the GM wants the run to progress so he/she will make things happen. A player with a good background story and a few contacts will also be effective. Granted a legend will have a few wizz toys he/she managed to pick up on a run, but not many. With min/maxers you can stretch things a long way, and resourceful intelligent players will stretch their char's abilities to match any legend.

If the GM chooses to ignore the very vital lines that seperate what is legendary, from what is not, that is their own perogative(godifeellikeimspellingthatwordwrong). That is not a matter of what is conceptualized as a Legend, but rather, how the GM chooses to implement it. The GM, then, will speak for the repurcussions, not the system.

-RM

Blacken

Aug 23 2005, 06:57 PM

Post #70

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

Well...

[ Spoiler ]

hahnsoo

Aug 23 2005, 06:58 PM

Post #71

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Rolemodel)

perogative(godifeellikeimspellingthatwordwrong).

According to m-w.com, it's prerogative, just FYI. I don't know if other dictionaries spell it perogative, but I've seen people spell it that way a lot.

Blacken View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 07:00 PM Post #72
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548	It's not perogative. Hahnsoo's got it. :P

Rolemodel View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 07:05 PM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094	Re: Prerogative. Right, that. Thanks. ;)

Nyxll

Aug 23 2005, 09:13 PM

Post #74

Moving Target

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QUOTE

A legend only has the benefit of reputation, and some Karma.

Uh-Kinda-But-Not-Really-Even-At-All.

Yup really. almost always... give me an example of an exception.

QUOTE

Any munchkin can often mix/max their char to be more effective and skillful than the typical "legend"

Absolutely... not. Unless you replace the word "legend" with "not-legend". Inwhich case, then yes.

mind backing up your through process here? just saying no, even with confabulating the issue... is very low brow.

QUOTE

When it comes to a run, I do not care how well you are known, I care about your skill level. Can you get the job done etc.

Which is exactly why a Legend, as already mentioned, is exactly the figure for the job, under all circumstances. You don't become one without, as you said, getting the job done. That said, from an OOC and purely statistical value, a Legend ought to not only have numbers on their sheet to back up their status, but also all the little bells and whistles, and frills of the fray to go with it.

(I don't know what frills of the fray are, but it really sounded cool there.)

Many legends are based upon exaggerated stories. Giving statistics gives credence to the character. The fact that harlequin didn't have stats didn't make him a legend... it made him annoying. Giving FJ a decking skill of 10 or whatever it may be makes him awesome. It shows dedication. It should be something not attainable by a new character, even if they are a munchkin.

QUOTE

A Legend will have tonnes of contacts, but the GM wants the run to progress so he/she will make things happen. A player with a good background story and a few contacts will also be effective. Granted a legend will have a few wizz toys he/she managed to pick up on a run, but not many. With min/maxers you can stretch things a long way, and resourceful intelligent players will stretch their char's abilities to match any legend.

If the GM chooses to ignore the very vital lines that seperate what is legendary, from what is not, that is their own perogative(godifeellikeimspellingthatwordwrong). That is not a matter of what is conceptualized as a Legend, but rather, how the GM chooses to implement it. The GM, then, will speak for the repurcussions, not the system.

Legends are subjective. The lines that define a legend are not defined. The point I was making here, petty gnit picking aside, is that a Legend should be defined by stats. They should be something that is not attainable by a new char, but part of the mysticism of a legend is that they are both less than their street rep should make them. (because humans tend to exaggerate), and have more character than the legend protrays them. ie. If FJ was this nova-hot decker with a skill of 10+ but also has an alcohol problem.
:edit:
how do we bring this back on topic?

This post has been edited by Nyxll: Aug 23 2005, 09:16 PM

Rolemodel

Aug 23 2005, 09:29 PM

Post #75

Moving Target

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QUOTE

Yup really. almost always... give me an example of an exception.

I think I have done that already a few posts ago. Perhaps you could address that one, before requesting another?

QUOTE

mind backing up your through process here? just saying no, even with confabulating the issue... is very low brow.

Sure. I believe that more than a number next to a word, under the 'Active Skill' section of a Character sheet creates a legend.

QUOTE

Many legends are based upon exaggerated stories. Giving statistics gives credence to the character. The fact that harlequin didn't have stats didn't make him a legend... it made him annoying. Giving FJ a decking skill of 10 or whatever it may be makes him awesome. It shows dedication. It should be something not attainable by a new character, even if they are a munchkin.

Sure. (As an aside, I believe Fastjack's deck stats alone suggested a decking skill of 15.) However, once again, an Legend cannot be summarized by a single active skill, regardless of horrifyingly high it can be. As I've said, there are many aspects of what forms a Legend outside of this. If at the very least, this is demonstrated in a cap on the availability of chargen equipment.

QUOTE

If FJ was this nova-hot decker with a skill of 10+ but also has an alcohol problem.

Yes, agreed. Legends are humans, too. Or Metahumans, as the case may be. But we aren't debating their humanity. We're touching on their capability. And I think it's fairly clear that your chargen run of the mill, regardless of how talented he can become in a single focus, still cannot compete with what is Legendary.

QUOTE

how do we bring this back on topic?

Good question. We could shift the direction of Legends to legendary deckers, perhaps, and hope someone picks up the ball from there, and drops it somewhere around Wireless networks? ;)

-RM

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