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> Shadowrun 4: Magic
Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 03:11 AM
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Feel free to ask questions, I and the others familiar with SR4 will try and answer questions when we can, and try to keep the thread on topic. :)
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Sabosect
post Aug 22 2005, 03:13 AM
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Okay. Got a list of spells available in this version?
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Babel
post Aug 22 2005, 04:47 AM
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How has Increase Reflexes changed with SR4? Is there still multiple versions of it (+1-3)?

What metamagic powers are available and what benefits do they provide?

How has astral perception and projection changed?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 04:59 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
Okay. Got a list of spells available in this version?

I don;t have a text version handy, and I'm not about to type up a big list of spells, sorry :)

Generally though, it seems to be similar to the spell selection from SR3 core book. The only thing that really jumped out at me is that both Petrify and Turn To Goo are in the core book again :)

Bull
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (Babel)
How has Increase Reflexes changed with SR4? Is there still multiple versions of it (+1-3)?

What metamagic powers are available and what benefits do they provide?

How has astral perception and projection changed?

Increase Reflexes: The effects are now identical to Wired Reflexes and the Adept version of Wired, so + to both Initative and Passes. There is only one version of the spell now, and it appears you choose which "bonus" you want to cast at. Each increase has a higher Threshold you have to meet, and +3 is teh highest it can go.

Metamagic: Umm, there's a handful of techniques included in the core book, most seem similar to their SR3 counterparts.

Atral Stuff doesn;t appear to have changed any.

Bull
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the_dunner
post Aug 22 2005, 05:16 AM
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I believe this is a complete list of spells, sorted alphabetically:

(Critter) Form
Acid Stream
Analyze Device
Analyze Truth
Antidote
Armor
Ball Lightning
Blast
Chaos
Chaotic World
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Clout
Combat Sense
Confusion
Control Actions
Control Emotions
Control Thoughts
Cure Disease
Death Touch
Decrease [Attribute]
Detect [Life Form]
Detect [Life Form], Extended
Detect [Object]
Detect Enemies
Detect Enemies, Extended
Detect Individual
Detect Life
Detect Life, Extended
Detect Magic
Detect Magic, Extended
Detox
Entertainment
Fireball
Flamethrower
Fling
Heal
Hibernate
Hush
Ice Sheet
Ignite
Improved Invisibility
Increase [Attribute]
Increase Reflexes
Influence
Invisibility
Knockout
Levitate
Light
Lightning Bolt
Magic Fingers
Mana Barrier
Manaball
Manabolt
Mask
Mass Confusion
Mind Probe
Mindlink
Mob Control
Mob Mind
Mob Mood
Oxygenate
Petrify
Phantasm
Physical Barrier
Physical Mask
Poltergeist
Powerball
Powerbolt
Prophylaxis
Punch
Resist Pain
Shadow
Shapechange
Shatter
Silence
Stabilize
Stealth
Stunball
Stunbolt
Toxic Wave
Trid Entertainment
Trid Phantasm
Turn to Goo
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 05:21 AM
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And you say *I* have too much time on my hands :)

Bull
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Sabosect
post Aug 22 2005, 05:22 AM
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Um... wow. Right as I was about to thank for him at least assuring me of what to expect.

In any case, thank you both.
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Alvorn
post Aug 22 2005, 06:08 AM
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Can you explain magic loss a little further. In particular buying back magic after you have lost it. So I start with a Magic at 4. Add some cyberware, takes it down to 3. Earn me some karma during a session, I want to boost my Magic back up. Do I pay for it as though it was going back to 4 or up to 5 ? Can you just pay for it this way or do you need to do an ordeal ? Can I choose to "initate" even though I only have 3 magic ?
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SL James
post Aug 22 2005, 09:09 AM
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I see that Improved Ability survived into Fourth (like I assumed), but I was wondering if it's just for individual skills or if there's a set of Improved Ability powers for the various Skill Groups that would cost 1 or 1.5 or more power points for each extra dice.

That'd be really nice. That way I can make a melee master who is actually a master of all melee and not most melee, and then really good at Blades or Unarmed.

Also, can I assume there is an Improved Dodge of some sorts, or something that perhaps does what Combat Sense does in Third Edition?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 22 2005, 04:09 AM)
I see that Improved Ability survived into Fourth (like I assumed), but I was wondering if it's just for individual skills or if there's a set of Improved Ability powers for the various Skill Groups that would cost 1 or 1.5 or more power points for each extra dice.

Improved ability is just for individual skills, but you can purchase Improved Ability and have it apply to a skill that's rolled into a skill group (i.e. Firearms Skill group of 4 and Improved Ability Pistols +2 would give you Agility + 6 dice for Pistols and Agility + 4 dice for everything else).
QUOTE
Also, can I assume there is an Improved Dodge of some sorts, or something that perhaps does what Combat Sense does in Third Edition?
0.5 per die. Combat Sense is totally evil now. Not only does it give you dice in Surprise tests, but it adds directly to your Reaction for the purposes of the Ranged/Melee attack opposed test while defending. It's better than Improved Ability (Dodge), because you can use it in all situations, not just full defense.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 10:06 AM
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sounds to me like a tricked out adept may well be able to take on a compareable sammie any day and win...
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
sounds to me like a tricked out adept may well be able to take on a compareable sammie any day and win...

Well, Reaction Enhancers and most initiative boosters do almost the same thing... add directly to Reaction. I think that's the most effective (and expensive) route to go. A sammy with any level of Wired and several Reaction Enhancers could easily hit their Reaction attribute cap. Adepts also can hit this cap pretty easily with their powers.
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SL James
post Aug 22 2005, 10:09 AM
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Dude, it sound like Adepts can dodge bullets now.

Anyway, that's interesting. I saw someone take the info from another thread and convert a Speaker's Way Adept with 100 karma into a terrible beast of destruction with Negotiations.
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Crusher Bob
post Aug 22 2005, 10:16 AM
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What attribute cap? does this mean that adept power and ware can no longer give you supertroll stats? A human with reaction 6 adds wired 1, does his reaction go to 7 or stay at 6?
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 12:08 PM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 05:06 AM)
sounds to me like a tricked out adept may well be able to take on a compareable sammie any day and win...

Well, Reaction Enhancers and most initiative boosters do almost the same thing... add directly to Reaction. I think that's the most effective (and expensive) route to go. A sammy with any level of Wired and several Reaction Enhancers could easily hit their Reaction attribute cap. Adepts also can hit this cap pretty easily with their powers.

i was more thinking in terms that with improved ability the adept can get more dice in a test then a sammie can ever get. point is that a sammie can get at most attrib+skill+edge while a adept can get attrib+skill+imp. ability+edge.

it may npt be much but wonder if not it will have some effect.

still, maybe one should have this forked into a diffrent thread as these posts may be on the edge of whats the point of this thread...

btw, does edge have a hard cap or can it go for ever?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Aug 22 2005, 05:16 AM)
What attribute cap?  does this mean that adept power and ware can no longer give you supertroll stats?  A human with reaction 6 adds wired 1, does his reaction go to 7 or stay at 6?

The augmented Reaction cap is 9 for everyone but Dwarves (which is at 7). Thus, your maximum Reaction will probably be a 9. A human with a Reaction 6 and Wired 1 will have a Reaction of 7.

I don't want to get into the "Adept vs. Sammie" debate (which has been going on through time immemorial), but I'd still say they can be pretty much evenly matched after character creation, especially with the addition of Bioware at character creation. Realize that while an Adept may have greater skill dice, a Sammie can more easily max out their Agility attribute and have some fairly good bioware options to add bonus dice as well.

Edge does have a hard cap of 6 (7 for humans), unless you get the Lucky quality (which bumps it up by one).
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Serbitar
post Aug 22 2005, 10:36 AM
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Is Reaction capped at 9 even when you got this extra thing so your unmodified limit is 7 ?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
Is Reaction capped at 9 even when you got this extra thing so your unmodified limit is 7 ?

Ah, good point. If you get Exceptional Attribute, you can boost your augmented Reaction rating to 10.
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Crusher Bob
post Aug 22 2005, 11:04 AM
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So the max augmented stat is your 'normal' max +3?
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SL James
post Aug 22 2005, 11:05 AM
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Oh, swell.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
So the max augmented stat is your 'normal' max +3?

Racial Max * 1.5, round down.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 22 2005, 05:05 AM)
Oh, swell.

*points to the sign hanging overhead*

Remember, this is the Questions Without Whining isle. The Nashing of Teeth isle, for all you moaning pleasure, is below. ;)

Back On Topic:

* Are background counts and/or mana warps covered, and roughly speaking how do they screw with magic now

EDIT: ....and does background count screw with all Adepts powers, and is any effect on Technos mentioned

* Does ongoing sustaining of spells cost you -2 dice to all actions?

* Can you cast more than one spell in a Complex Action (simultaneous cast) and what is the penalty for it

* How long does it take for Heal to come into effect, do you have to sustain it over several rounds/seconds/minutes?
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Annihilator
post Aug 22 2005, 11:43 AM
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In previous editions you had to roll for magic loss if getting a deadly wound or on certain other occasions (first aid without the +2 mage modifier,...).

How does this work in SR4 and when do you have to roll for magic loss?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 11:46 AM
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Background counts are not covered in SR4.

Each sustained spell gives you -2 Dice for all of your actions.

You can cast multiple spells in a single action, but you must split your Spellcasting + Magic dice among all of the spells that you cast, and the drain value for each of the spells is increased by 1 point for every additional spell.

The duration that Permanent spells need to be sustained is equal to twice the Drain Value of the spell (which for Heal is the Damage Level of the target -2). Each point of Essence Loss on the target reduces the dice pool for the Spellcasting test by 1.

A special note about area-effect spells: Radius is now equal to the Force of the spell.
EDIT: Oh boy. The text on p173 and p195 contradict each other. p173, under the description of area spells, uses Force for the Radius, while p195 says Magic rating.
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