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> Shadowrun 4: Magic
Triggerz
post Aug 27 2005, 03:03 AM
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Thanks, tisoz! The hard cap on skill seems particularly harsh when you consider all the possible bonuses you can get from magic and/or cyber/bioware, specialization and a bunch of other little things. I mean: a high natural skill that could actually compete with skills boosted by cyber/bio/magic/etc., that was magical! The possibility that... possibly... there was a tiny chance for a non-cybered, non-magical guy to compete with the monsters...

I mean: How world class are you at Unarmed Combat 7 if a significant percentage of physads will have 8+ due to improved abilities? Doesn't quite seem to me like: "Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history."

Hmmm... I recall reading somewhere that what determines who's the best is results. Skill rating is just a number. If you get your ass kicked all the time, then you're no melee master, for sure. I don't want to see martial artists "whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history" get their ass kicked on a regular basis by guys with a few levels of muscle toners.

Oh! Well, I guess I'll see when I get my hands on the book.
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maeel
post Aug 27 2005, 03:56 AM
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can someone please make a list of all adept powers in SR4 core book..

thx!
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maeel
post Aug 27 2005, 07:32 AM
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oh, and while i am at it, can someone of those fortunate to have book, please give us an example, how an attack with a stunbolt works.

with targets resistance and all....

thx
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GunnerJ
post Aug 27 2005, 02:24 PM
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Triggerz: I plan to house rule that cap on skills out of existence. On attributes is one thing (although I'm a fan of cyberware being able to surpass normal limitations), but skills I always felt should be infinate in growth.
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Triggerz
post Aug 27 2005, 02:37 PM
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I like lower skill levels in general as they will help keep down the number of dice rolled. (You roll six, and then another six, and then six again, and...) Rolling lots of dice can slow a game down considerably. But yeah, I think I might go with some kind of exponential cost for skills to keep skills above 6 extremely rare - but still possible. The hard cap can make too many guys with a few bonuses act way too cocky. If an adept knows there is a possibility that the old man over there might actually have a skill of, say, 10, then maybe he'll be a bit more carefull about who he chooses to bully.
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Space Ghost
post Aug 28 2005, 07:39 PM
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i was wondering about the Combat Sense adept power. Does it add dice for certain tests, or does it actually add to reaction, thereby being subject to the hard cap on attributes?

i imagine it's also limited to a number of levels equal to your magic rating, but is it also limited by your reaction attribute?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 28 2005, 07:45 PM
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A little from column A, a little from column B.

Combat Sense adds to Reaction only in Surprise test and when rolling Reaction to defend against attacks (i.e. Dodge test), melee or ranged or otherwise. The wording makes it seem like it's also subject to the attribute cap for Reaction (because it adds to Reaction), but you can buy levels up to your Magic Attribute for it (no other limitation). Remember, since there are usually penalties involved, extra dice above the Attribute cap are still useful.
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Triggerz
post Aug 28 2005, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE
THat is the way I interperate it at the moment. It provides a magical (device) sense so long as the spell is sustained. This sense provides constant feedback from the device sort of like a magical half-VCR or the adept attunment metamagic.
hyzmarca

Attunment metamagic? Is that in the SR4 BBB? From SOTA 2063 or 2064? If it's from the SR4 BBB, can anyone tell me what it does and how it works?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 28 2005, 09:33 PM
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Attunement is from SOTA 2064. It allows you spend Karma to bond a mundane item to yourself, gaining a -1 TN bonus when using that particular item (but linking that item to you).
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Triggerz
post Aug 29 2005, 01:09 AM
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Cool!
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Toshiaki
post Aug 29 2005, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (maeel)
oh, and while i am at it, can someone of those fortunate to have book, please give us an example, how an attack with a stunbolt works.

with targets resistance and all....

thx


This is from another thread:
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Marvin the Mage has a Magic Attribute of 5 and a Spellcasting of 5. This means he rolls 10 dice on his spellcasting. He selects Sam the SecGuard as his target for the Stunbolt. He decides to go for a Force 5 Stunbolt, mostly because he's a wuss when it comes to drain and doesn't like overcasting.

On his spellcasting roll, he gets 4 hits, just above the expected average. It's his lucky day, I guess. Sam the SecGuard has a Willpower of 3 and doesn't have any Counterspelling to protect him as spell defense, so he rolls 1 hit on his resistance test (about average that he can expect).

Now we figure out the damage. The base DV is equal to the Force of the spell, which is 5. You add the net hits, which is 4 - 1 = 3 hits, thus doing 8 points of Stun damage. Since Sam the SecGuard has 10 Stun boxes (willpower of 3), he's 2 boxes away from being Knocked out.

Finally, we figure out drain. The drain for a Stunbolt is Force/2 (round down) - 1, which in this case will be a DV of 1 measly point. Marvin the Mage rolls his Willpower + Logic (being a Hermetic), which in this case is 4 + 4, or 8. He easily gets the 1 hit he needs to reduce the drain down to nothing.

Now, if he had not been such a wuss and went for the full tamale overcasting, he could have cast a Force 7 Stunbolt, and using the above example would probably knock the guard out (3 net hits) and still not take Drain (2 DV physical). Or if he feels that he absolutely needs to knock out the guard, he could go for a 9 Force Stunbolt (just below his max of 10), and guarantee a knockout, while taking 3 DV physical drain (probably reduced down to 0 or 1 boxes).
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Talia Invierno
post Aug 29 2005, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE
I plan to house rule that cap on skills out of existence.
- GunnerJ

We're torn. On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns; but on the other hand we don't want to say this far, and no further ... ever (without magic or 'ware). Attributes, yes to the hard cap (and we like it here): but not skills.

Our compromise will be a soft cap taking into account both the SR4 hard cap (6) and the SR3 idea of linked attributes, usable for individual skills only. Each skill level over the attribute level will cost double. Additionally, every skill level over six will have +1 added to the multiplier. Thus:

Improving an Active Skill by 1 (<= linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 2 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 4 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, >6) - (New Rating) x (4 + [new level-6]) Karma
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nezumi
post Aug 29 2005, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns;

Keep in mind, diminishing returns isn't the same as NO returns.
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NeoJudas
post Aug 29 2005, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE
I plan to house rule that cap on skills out of existence.
- GunnerJ

We're torn. On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns; but on the other hand we don't want to say this far, and no further ... ever (without magic or 'ware). Attributes, yes to the hard cap (and we like it here): but not skills.

Our compromise will be a soft cap taking into account both the SR4 hard cap (6) and the SR3 idea of linked attributes, usable for individual skills only. Each skill level over the attribute level will cost double. Additionally, every skill level over six will have +1 added to the multiplier. Thus:

Improving an Active Skill by 1 (<= linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 2 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 4 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, >6) - (New Rating) x (4 + [new level-6]) Karma

I think we've diverged from topic, but in this instance.... We here also have tossed out the Skill Cap, but we are *NOT* going to sack the karma totals for skills greater than the rating of the attributes. We have not officially come up with the final number, but given that the cost for skills is already greater than it was in third edition, we'll either leave the costs as is or increased them to a x3 for ratings greater than attribute.
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Talia Invierno
post Aug 29 2005, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE
Keep in mind, diminishing returns isn't the same as NO returns.
- nezumi

True. I misworded. End pseudo thread hijack :)
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Magnus Jakobsson
post Aug 31 2005, 08:04 PM
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Does it take an action to use the adept power Attribute Boost? What kind of action? If it doesn't take an action, can it be used outside of the adepts action phase?

(Just got the pdf. Looks good!)

- Magnus
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WhiteRabbit
post Sep 1 2005, 10:07 AM
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Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others?
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hahnsoo
post Sep 1 2005, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (WhiteRabbit)
Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others?

Poltergeist is pretty similar, but the drain for it is pretty hideous anyway (Even at Force 1, you are going to have 3 boxes of Drain).

Shapechange does have one effect that's linked to Force: Bonus Attribute points. That alone seems... unbalancing to cast even at low Force (considering it does the work of all 4 Physical Increase Attribute spells simultaneously).
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Eyeless Blond
post Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Looking at Combat Sense p198, I find it very difficult to believe that it's an Active/Psychic spell. I think it should be Passive/Psychic, looking in the spell description of the effect and the sheer mechanics of the spell in question. Otherwise, you'll be rolling lots of Opposed tests, something that should only be reserved for things like Detect Individual or Mind Probe.

Oh? Does this mean that Detection spells that obviously shouldn't be resisted (like Nightvision and Clairvoyance) are actually not resisted? Sweet.
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mintcar
post Sep 4 2005, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 1 2005, 06:15 AM)
QUOTE (WhiteRabbit @ Sep 1 2005, 05:07 AM)
Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument?  In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to.  Are there any others?

Poltergeist is pretty similar, but the drain for it is pretty hideous anyway (Even at Force 1, you are going to have 3 boxes of Drain).

Shapechange does have one effect that's linked to Force: Bonus Attribute points. That alone seems... unbalancing to cast even at low Force (considering it does the work of all 4 Physical Increase Attribute spells simultaneously).

Wow. I haven´t read every spell discription yet so this one I hadn´t seen. How can it be so badly written? There´s no way I can let any player have that spell as it stands.


Hmm off the top of my head I figure a threshold equal to the difference in body. Same amount of hits as the threshold transforms player into a sub-par creature of -1 attributes, one net hit you get the stock attributes, and any hits above that is bonus.
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DrJest
post Sep 5 2005, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Oh? Does this mean that Detection spells that obviously shouldn't be resisted (like Nightvision and Clairvoyance) are actually not resisted? Sweet.


On that subject, is the Enhance Aim spell still floating around? If it doesn't have to be resisted, that would be very nice (although in all fairness we usually ignored that aspect anyway for ordinary "bit part" characters)
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Jürgen Hubert
post Sep 5 2005, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE (Triggerz)
Thanks, tisoz! The hard cap on skill seems particularly harsh when you consider all the possible bonuses you can get from magic and/or cyber/bioware, specialization and a bunch of other little things. I mean: a high natural skill that could actually compete with skills boosted by cyber/bio/magic/etc., that was magical! The possibility that... possibly... there was a tiny chance for a non-cybered, non-magical guy to compete with the monsters...

That's what Edge is for.
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DarkMage
post Sep 5 2005, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2005, 08:49 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 24 2005, 03:46 PM)
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2005, 02:36 PM)
  ... 

My money is on this belonging in the Errata thread.

I hope so. Magician Adept initiation was always a problematic thing due to bad wording but to remove it entirely would be a bit draconian!

I'm not sure if anyones mentioned this but it is in the offical errata:
QUOTE
p. 189 Initiation
Add “Mystic Adept” to “Only character with the Magician or
Adept qualities may initiate."
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evil1i
post Sep 9 2005, 05:16 AM
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I assume because riposting has been removed from melee combat that the counter attack adept power has also not made a showing?
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Toshiaki
post Sep 9 2005, 06:48 AM
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Correct, Counter Attack is not in the core book.

Here's a list from another thread:
QUOTE (Pandamoanyum & hahnsoo)
Adept Abilities:
Astral Perception
Attribute Boost
Combat Sense
Critical Strike
Enhanced Perception
Great Leap
Improved Ability
Improved Physical Attribute
Improved Reflexes
Improved Sense
Killing Hands
Kinesics
Missile Parry
Mystic Armor
Natural Immunity
Pain Resistance
Rapid Healing
Spell Resistance
Voice Control
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