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> Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging
Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 03:12 AM
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Feel free to ask questions, I and the others familiar with SR4 will try and answer questions when we can, and try to keep the thread on topic. :)
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the_dunner
post Aug 22 2005, 03:15 AM
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Crap, Bull, you get home from GenCon, and you don't have anything better to do than...

oh wait. :P
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 03:43 AM
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Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?

The concept and how the matrix and Hosts work is a good deal different, and the mechanics are vastly different, but IC and Agents are still around. I'm assuming you mean "Searches", as in searching for information, and that is still there. The Security Sheave is now gone, however.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 04:44 AM
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Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?

Similar to how it worked pre-VR2.0. Basically, if you fail to proparly sneak into a host, or you alert the host through your actions (Like destroying things), there are several responses the host can make. One of them is to have IC on hand to attack the intruder. It's more freeform now, and this sort of thing is basically at the GM's disctrection (Though there is a random d6 chart of responses in the book for lazy GMs :)).

Other possible actions include calling in a security hacker, attempting to terminate the hacker's connection, or shutting down the system altogether.

Bull
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 04:53 AM
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So...I may be reading this wrong, but is it all or nothing?
IE I can't have a trace launch at one response and a killer the next (To use SR3 IC)
Instead hacker fails role, host's security system sends in the IC

...I guess a better way to ask is are there more or less or the same number of IC on any given server?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 05:11 AM
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I think it's GMs call. The new rules are pretty loose and designed to give both the player and GM more freedom, and to run a lot faster. One of the biggest design elements of a lot of the rules seems to have been to remove excess bookkeeping.

So a Host could have multiple pieces of IC. Maybe it all attacks the first time you misstep. Maybe each time it loads a new copy of the IC. You could still set up a security sheave of sorts with a prearranged list of events that happen each time the Hacker sets off an alert.

But as it stands, there's no hard and fast rules. Other than if the system shuts down, it won;t activate any additional IC ;)

Bull
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mfb
post Aug 22 2005, 06:49 AM
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the interesting thing is, IC is always loaded onto frames. and frames can be hacked. it's a little too easy, in my opinion, to jack IC frames, but meh. it's neat.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 09:55 AM
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so basicly one can turn the hosts own defences against any security present?

if so then i take it there is no real need to pack combat softs when your a technomancer :P

hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

and can you give us a quick rundown on how rigging works now?

and how will electronic warfare impact say the effectivnes of wireless smartlinks?

and i must say i kinda like the idea of more freeform responses in hosts. one day you crack your local news agent you may just be faced with some trace and an attempt to kill the connection (nice that the host can do this now, means that a mom&pop site dont need to load up on heavy ice any more) while the next time it may hit you with gray or worse from the word go :cyber:

it allso removes the trouble of a script kiddie jacking in and crewing up and then a wage slave jacks in and gets blown away by allready active ice :P

i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?

and can the hacker change mode on the fly?
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 03:55 AM)
hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

This has to be at least Restricted if not Illegal, legality of the weapon aside.

What are the mechanics for The Man casually/actively spotting gear with Black Ice on it? Keeping in mind that there are lots an lots of devices walking around for causual checking.

QUOTE
i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?


The main question i have about that is the state of the meat body during VR? Limp noodle?
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mfb
post Aug 22 2005, 12:28 PM
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VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 22 2005, 06:28 AM)
VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.

So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 07:35 AM)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls?  Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.

Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks? EDIT: At least going towards the device. Can you spoof a device to the commlink, or is it secure that way too?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. :-P It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:06 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. :-P It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.

Ah, ok. So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?

What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 01:16 PM
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like someone pointed out before on a older thread; being within range to hack a device isnt a problem, just get a bigger antenna...

but this isnt the place to take the rules apart, the forum is allready full of threads doing that :P

hmm, i like the sound of being able to split ones icon. this allow the system to be more similar to present day in that you can be sitting on x number of chat hosts and so on.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE
Ah, ok.  So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?
You can, if the device was upgraded to have a stronger signal, I guess. Seems kinda pointless unless it's a Smart sentry gun.
QUOTE
What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
First of all, how the heck are you going to hack while you are grappling? You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations. 2m is just a ballpark figure, I think the max effective range of a Signal 0 device is 3m. It definitely requires much more than simply "getting into range" and doing a Complex Action to steal the gun (assuming that it's smartlinked to begin with). I think brute force hacking (or hacking on the fly) is a Hacking + Exploit (Firewall rating, 1 Initiative Pass) Extended test for the access (which, depending on the Firewall, might delay you for a bit), then you have to engage in an appropriate action (depending on what you want to do), with the risk of triggering an alert both on the above Extended test and the Hacking actions. An alert can scramble a VR security Decker (if you are hacking into a sec guard's item), patrolling VR IC on a node nearby, Terminate all connections (locking everyone out of the item) or shutdown (rebooting the item). Still, I wouldn't make any speculations about the Hacking system until you get a copy of the book and can slog through it, and then playtest it multiple times (I'm still in the process of doing so in my group).
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:18 AM)
You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations.

You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is **grabbling the opponent. ;)

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

**EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 01:40 PM
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i still wonder if one can jam the connection between the smartlink and the gun using electronic warfare and if so what kind of effects that will have :P

hmm, can one hack say a persons display contacts of cybereyes so that they see false images or nothing at all?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:27 AM)
You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is grappling the opponent. ;)

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time

If you are using Augmented Reality, you will have to be able to manipulate AR somehow. I'm not sure if having "just" a cybernetic commlink would be sufficient for this, as you have to be able to manipulate the AR symbols and such. As it stands, to grapple an opponent, you would need to use a Complex Action each action phase, thus limiting your ability to do anything else. Likewise, most Hacking actions are either Simple Actions or Complex Actions. Just like you can't grapple someone AND cast a spell unless it's happens to be a touch-based attack spell of some sort.

Going "VR" is just like jacking into an old-time Cyberdeck and the old Matrix.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:48 PM
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:49 PM
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So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about simultaneous conjuring and casting?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about conjuring and casting?

It's just like SR3. In other words, no.
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