 Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging |
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 Sep 1 2005, 09:24 AM
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#226
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 1,644  |
So, let me get this straight, a techonomancer or anyone with an implanted commlink could communicate mentally with anyone anywhere in the world that is also connected to the Matrix at any time? Thats interesting... particularly in regards to technomancer groups/society.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:05 AM
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#227
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Unless they turn their
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Sep 1 2005, 10:25 AM
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#228
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
There's also a device called a Jammer that, well, Jams signals in a mall, local area. Unless the device has a higher rating than the Jammer, it can't send or recieve a signal. Seems like a fairly common, and relativly cheap item that lots of corps will keep around "in case of an emergency". :)
Bull |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:28 AM
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#229
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Considering that some movie theatres and churches are already squeching cell phone signals...
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Sep 1 2005, 10:37 AM
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#230
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not really a spoiler, but the fiction in the front of SR4, Buzzkill, conveys this stuff fairly well.
In SR4 the Matrix is openned up a lot more. It is common place for people like Joe Mage to see and interact with a decker icon, where as in SR3 the only people to see them were usually other deckers. |
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Sep 1 2005, 12:32 PM
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#231
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
With all of this more open access of the matrix, does that mean that we all have to make our icons? (make is in write out a description of what our online persona looks like, no having to make vs buy the persona chips), and is it still possible to have multiple persona chips available, and load whichever one you want to use?
And finally, i dont THINK i've seen anyone ask it, but is the new wireless an "always on" sort of option for a decker, or are there penelties galore still for taking meatword actions while umm.. "unwired in"? |
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Sep 1 2005, 12:48 PM
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#232
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I don't believe you have a online personna unless you go VR (where your meat goes limp like old-style decking), and not everyone is going to go VR. However the intermediate step of AR is there so you can see inside the Matrix (such as having a pair of glasses that display stuff HUD). |
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Sep 1 2005, 12:56 PM
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#233
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
hmm, i'm not going to get into what the power differences of AR vs VR are, i'll wait to get my (hopefully) second printing of the book, but i'm guessing in AR you're going to have some sort of boni to doing things...
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Sep 2 2005, 09:09 AM
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#234
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
Well since i was sent here, I will ask my question here. Since it was kinda gone over already i'll just dig in. Lets say my hacker doesn't have the specific program to perform a matrix action. What it says in the book is that then I should roll logic + hacking skill. If my logic is 7, via cerbral booster. then why EVER buy programs ? you roll more dice (skill + logic of 7 verses skill plus possible starting program max of 6) if you just default to your base skill. So other than the joys of roleplaying a logic 1 hacker would it not be better to simply default to logic+hacking and not worry about programs at all. Or should we be rolling logic + hacking skill + program rating? Or is the game not balanced for that?
It does seem rather stupid to have game mechanics drive hackers twards having a low logic, which IS their primary stat. Great for combat hackers.. but strange. Well thats my question. Thanks! |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:23 AM
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#235
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Virtual Reality is full immersion. Two types of this hot and cold. Hot gives the best bonus but your meat takes Physical damage from cyber combat. Cold gives better than AR but not as good as Hot and your meat takes Stun damage from cyber combat. Augmented Reality is not immersion. This is like a HUD where stuff is overlaid on your normal vision via eye implants, contact lenses, or glasses. The dice bonuses are minimal and typically at GM whim. You don't take damage from it, but the GM can assign effectively vision based penalties if someone does something to screw with the overlays. For rigging this is like the old virtual dashboard mode that people with datajacks but no VCR could use. Your character can walk around with this on and they can pick up public broadcasts from stores and stuff, as well as info from your team, the weather network, your personal day timer, techincal manual, etc. For an input device to control what you see you can also use 'trodes, a datajack, or a glove thing that works a bit like a contempary mouse does. |
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Sep 2 2005, 11:58 AM
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#236
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
phoniex, while i dont have the book i have picked up some comments about there being matrix actions that do not have any kind of program that can help.
sure, its not perfect, but atleast there are is a reason to take more the logic 1. there is allso a lot of non-matrix actions that can help a decker (i guess im going to keep calling them that) thats still based on logic unless im misstaken. so while you can make a logic 1 decker they can be compareable to todays script kiddies. people that sit on the chat systems and brag about the number of machines they have under their control and then go ahead and fall for the oldes trick in the book: the 127.0.0.1 address matrix equivalent :silly: |
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Sep 2 2005, 01:20 PM
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#237
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Thanks Blakkie, kinda how i was imagining it, (although i dont think i knew there was that much of a difference between hot an cold assist errr. AR...)
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Sep 2 2005, 05:14 PM
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#238
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
looking at all those micro and mini drones who are easy to carry concealed and being subscribed as groups, I wonder who will be the first one to build a character called 'Lord of the Flies'. :grinbig:
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Sep 2 2005, 06:04 PM
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#239
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,896 |
Wouldn't that be defaulting and subject to some sort of penalty? I've got to imagine there is some sort of penalty for not using a program when the check calls for one. Like not having a skill and defaulting (or is defaulting gone now too?)... |
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Sep 2 2005, 06:08 PM
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#240
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
If you don't have a program, and a task requires one, you are stuck. You can't even make the test. Generous GMs may allow you to make a jury-rig program given some time (at least 1 hour) and your Software skill, but the only characters that can "make" programs on the fly are Technomancers (through Threading). |
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Sep 2 2005, 06:08 PM
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#241
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As far as it was stated here - no programm, no roll.
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Sep 3 2005, 05:02 AM
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#242
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
Ok, call me stupid for asking this but.. IF a program is required to even TRY to make a test, then why bother rolling hacking skill at all? IF its only the program that makes a test possible, then the program has got to be doing virtually ALL the workload. Assuming the reason why you need the program and can't do without it, is it will take hours to come up with even the most basic code to deal with a matrix action. Then why even bother with the hacking skill, because your basically saying hacking skill can't do it alone, if the skill can't "hack it" (sorry horrid pun but I just could not delete it ;) ) then why add it at all. What does the hacking skill do, if not allow you to take illegal matrix actions? Then comes the question, well if there is no program for a particular task, why is hacking skill suddenly able to do something very similar to that matrix action that required a program, and you can add your logic to the test. All for the price of not doing an operation that requires a program you have to pay for...? I'm sorry i could not give concrete examples, I too am at work and my book is at home, because I was stupid and took it out of my bag :( |
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Sep 3 2005, 05:08 AM
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#243
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, it's akin to not being able to do an Electronics/Hardware test without an Electronics Kit. *shrugs* The only difference is that you can do an improvised tool "Macguyver" thing with Hardware at a penalty, but that would be the same thing as whipping up an improvised program for Hacking using Software.
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Sep 3 2005, 05:39 AM
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#244
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
But you can do a biotech test without a first aid kit.. its not a good idea but you can do it. Also I know in 3rd edition you could attempt an electroncis test without a kit, but it was like at least a +4TN modifier. But that may have just been my GM being nice to characters that needed to get through a security door and the most useful tool any characters had was ducktape, yes we used alot of ducktape cracking that maglock ;) Damn it i really wish i had brought my book with me tonight. |
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Sep 3 2005, 05:51 AM
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#245
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The program probably needs to be fine-tuned for the specific purpose each time, which would involve the Hacking skill. |
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Sep 3 2005, 06:35 AM
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#246
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
I'm fine with your explanations for why I might wrong, and believe me I have been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. But, i have to keep playing devil's advocate here. If you see a flaw in my logic, please explain it to me. Is the purpose of the hacking skill to fine tune programs? Or to just set parameters on a program? If thats all it is, then it seems like a very large amount of dice to add to what, at its base should be a program test. In reality, I can very easily understand why pretty much all "hacking" should only be done by programs, because of the way it works. I just assumed in the VR world of the matrix, if you wanted to hack your way inside a host you should have 2 options. Option 1, use your program (ie monofilament chainsaw) to cut your way through the door fast option 2, use your natural skill and logic (ie your bare hands) to beat the door down and hope. they both seemed like reasonable ways of working in VR, with real world corrallarys, but the game mechanics don't support this way of thinking. Because without the chainsaw (program) you can not even try to hack your way into something. And so the hacking skill becomes basically useless. Unless you have the correct program, and then it adds a lot of dice to a test that is basically just the program running to see if its rating is better than the defenses of the system the program is trying to hack |
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Sep 3 2005, 12:57 PM
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#247
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
what you would basicly be doing then is recreate the lady on the cover of rigger 2 :P |
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Sep 3 2005, 01:40 PM
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#248
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Nopo, those where shiny drones without the artful application of nanopaste. :P
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Sep 3 2005, 07:07 PM
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#249
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Erm, do you know how much of a bad idea that is, both mechanics-wise and real life? The most you could do is diagnose, and even then, without the proper tools, you can't do much. With a threshold of 2 and an assortment of bad modifiers for not being in a proper place and without a medkit, you probably won't get any net successes.
Right, but you'd have to spend some time scrounging up the tools, even with a generous GM. If you have the inadequate tools on your person, then why didn't you bring an Electronics kit? You can do a test with inadequate tools for both cracking a maglock (spend an hour scrounging something up) and hacking a system (spend an hour on your commlink writing a quick program) in SR4. Neither will be effective, but that's the advantage of being prepared with an electronics kit or the proper program.
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Sep 3 2005, 07:46 PM
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#250
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,896 |
Ok, I remember this being a vague point with previous versions of SR... how many copies of an Agent or IC (or any program really) can you as a Hacker run at a time? Is it just limited by your subscriber list (if running indepently, or straight System if running on your own OS) and each one having to be loaded one at a time?
As an example, you have a System of 5 and you want to have a number of Agents on hand to help you fight in cyber combat. You could load 4 of them and (assuming you ran no more than one other program at a time) not suffer penalties to Response? Or the same System of 5 and they are instead loaded into the node (think an ambush) and you could load 9 of them and be connected to node yourself and you all jump an icon at the same time? Did I miss a page with more rules for this than the ones I alluded to in my example? |
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