 Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging |
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 Sep 4 2005, 04:35 AM
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#251
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,896  |
Addiction and hot-sim VR... what are some good stats for addiction tests? Do technomancers also face addiction from hot-sim VR? Does anyone plan to make much use of those rules?
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Sep 5 2005, 01:46 AM
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#252
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 21-April 02 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 2,631 |
Technomancer's start with a bio feddback filter equal to their Charisma. If a technomancer wanted to could they take the Complex Form biofeedback filter to raise their existing filter above charisma, or replace the innate biofeedback filter all together with a higher rating.
Basically Can they take the form again, and if so would it add to or replace the existing filter the technomancer started with. BlacKat |
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Sep 5 2005, 05:07 AM
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#253
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
As long as you have less than (System) programs running on your Comm there is no degradation in performance. You take a -1 to Response for System-(2xSystem-1) programs. Meaning that for a System:5 Comm, 0-4 programs have no impact, 5-9 programs give you a -1, 10-14 programs a -2, etc. Not sure what the trick is to load programs onto the client system. I've loaned my copy to my brother. |
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Sep 5 2005, 06:55 AM
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#254
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
No, they cannot take a Bio-feedback filter complex form They are stuck with charisma, and the quality that increases the filter, and I think there is an echo available on submersion that can increase your filter. |
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Sep 5 2005, 12:40 PM
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#255
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,896 |
Is there anything saying you can't run more than one copy of the same program, Agent, or IC? For example, could you load the same Agent or piece of IC into your comm two or more times? What about programs? Could you load multiple copies of Armor and if so, what would be the effect? |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:46 AM
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#256
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
This is why the Test is "Hacking + Program". The Skill part of manuvering the program is represented by the Hacking Skill. It's just that the Attribute part is being replaced by the Program, which is doing the Brute Work of the action. It doesn't matter how smart you are, it's the Program's smarts that is doing the work. Your Skill in Hacking adds to that to represent how good you are at setting up the Program to work. I am only rephrasing what I think Synner is saying that I think some people might be missing. I have never read the rule book, but it seems to make sense to me. Perhaps you raw Logic would come into play if you defaulted to Intelligence? I don't even know if there is defaulting like that in SR4. |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:16 AM
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#257
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
The main problem I have with the program requirement and leaving off logic are simple. It now makes sense to be a low logic hacker from a gameplay perspective. Trolls can be just as good at hacking as everyone else for the same cost. Going actually into the matrix with your mind means nothing, other than you get an out of body experience. Hackers can not actually hack under these rules. The hacking skill should be renamed to optimizing program settings skill.
I will say that, these rules are more real world based. But people can hack computers today instead of cracking them with programs. You can't do that in 2070? |
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Sep 7 2005, 01:21 PM
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#258
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
I will respectfully say that I disagree with you. A Hacker or a Cracker today does not and cannot do that kind of thing without programs of all sorts. Often the Hacker may need to use the programs in ways not intended, but no one simply looks at streams of hex scrolling across a greenscreen dummy terminal. They use programs that take the hex and decodeds it and displays it it meaningful ways. Then they might use other programs to put hex or more likely more highlevel code back into another stream. Script Kiddies are a good example of Crackers that don't know what they are doing exactly, but they use programs they find to take over machines. Besides, if Skills are still linked to Attributes as in SR3, then getting Hacking Skills would be extremely expensive without a reasonable Logic. But even saying that, in SR4, you can hack without programs, just not as well, and that makes a lot of sense to me. |
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Sep 7 2005, 02:51 PM
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#259
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
Actually, I need to interject here. While it doesn't count as script coding *I* can look at raw code on a MS-OS PC and tell someone whether a file is AVI, JPG or MPG format. I can*NOT* tell you what kind of MPG mind you, but I can see the basic markers and recognize them for what they are and what they indicate. So the idea of an attribute (perceptual/logical) being involved has some value in an argument. Mind you, I also do video editing for a living these days so it's also not fun going with me to a movie with loads of CGI as I can see passed/through all of the best these days. Nightmare of the Career I suppose (shrugs). |
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Sep 7 2005, 03:07 PM
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#260
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
but what when you encounter a video file type that you have never seen the marking on before? can you guess what it is based on pure logical theory?
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Sep 7 2005, 03:09 PM
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#261
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,702 |
I'm pretty sure that's not solely because of your innate logic powers, though; I know I had no idea how to do such things before I learned how to do so. Knowing the filetype from the magic numbers at the beginning is almost no ability and almost all skill/knowledge. And picking out CGI or compression artifacts is almost entirely about skill, and having trained yourself to know what to look for. |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:31 PM
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#262
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
I could very well be wrong here, but I would argue that you can recognize those video formats because you have trained that skill, and not, as the others say here, that you use an inate logical process to figure out what's in the hex. Granted, training that skill is much easier if you have a better Logic, but that is represented in the higher Karma cost of skill levels above the attached Attribute in SR3. I ass-u-me that SR4 has something similar. That's just my opinion, yours is equally valid. |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:28 PM
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#263
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Erm, take this discussion out of the Q&A sticky thread, and into the SR4 discussion forum? This thread is for Q&A about SR4's Hacking and Rigging, and not the merits of rolling in Logic with computer skill tests.
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Sep 10 2005, 11:25 PM
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#264
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Vehicles an Drone come with integrated Sensors.
Can those be upgraded with Vision and Audio Enhancements directly, or does one have to add a Camera or Microphone Sensor package to do so as stated by the Sensor Package rules (thus being limited to capacity)? |
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Sep 11 2005, 02:06 AM
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#265
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
The way my group reads it (and, sadly, this is yet another instance where the RAW could stand to be clarified) is that, yes, you have to install enhanced cameras, mics, etc. (the reason they list various size drones along with other devices on the general capacities table) to get those benefits.
As written, the integral sensors appear to be some sort of short-range radar-like system, not video/audio - which would be why smartlinks don't particularly help with targeting vehicle-mounted weapons while rigging or otherwise not pointing the gun yourself. And also helps to explain why metahumans have such a low sensor profile. If you or the Pilot program could just see them, you wouldn't have to replace Intuition with Sensors on perception rolls. All basic cameras are considered to have perfect 20/20 vision, so there'd be no real need for sensor ratings, either, if that's what vehicle sensors were. Of course, the designers could have had other intentions, but the rules aren't very clear on what, exactly, basic vehicle sensors include. |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:47 AM
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#266
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Thats the conclusion I came to, too (though it would be much nicer if the actually said that, indeed) - and that has quite interesting implications: As soon as you outfit a Drone with a Camera/Microphone, it would be allowed to use Pilot supported with Vision/Audio Enhancement to perceive, too, or use a Smartlink for boosting it's combat effectiveness. It would also keep Micro Drones from becoming the ultimate spys - they can have a Camera or a Microphone, not both. |
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Sep 11 2005, 11:18 AM
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#267
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
You can use the even smaller RFID-Tags for the drone. So, in theory, no problem with a dozen skinlinked sensors on a fly. ;-)
And since vehicle sensors are capable of picking up sound and giving the drone information about the surroundings, at least two different sensors are integrated even in a micro drone: acoustic sensors and radar (or even additional video, after all, the pilot can make normal Perception tests through the drones sensors). SYL |
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Sep 11 2005, 11:24 AM
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#268
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, not normal ones - they use Sensor rating instead of Intuition, which enables them to recognize patterns/signatures - whether they can even perceive details this way is a good question.
With the Camera/Microphone, the Test would indeed be a normal one... with Intuition, Enhancements and all. As for the RFID Camera/Microphone - uh, well, it has an effective visual/audio range of 3 meters... compared to the Camera/Microphone of a Micro Drone that sports a 100 meter effective range, its not that good. ;) |
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Sep 11 2005, 11:34 AM
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#269
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
In a standard sensor array, regardless if it is in a micro drone or on an aircraft carrier, the pilot (real or AI) have at least two different sensor: something "visual", something "acoustic". Even the word "emissions" could be read as "IR" (funny, "composition" sounds like the description of the milimeter wave scanner (cyberwarescanner)). So, even on a micro drone (with radar and microphone) it would be very easy to add a camera (with visual/audio enhancements). Regarding the range of the RFIDs: good point, although I am not quite sure, if it makes sense to apply these ranges to a passive sensor. And I am still waiting for the next errata-PDF, where submarines, planes and rotorcrafts will have a sensor rating. :sleepy: SYL |
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Sep 11 2005, 11:41 AM
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#270
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That was never quite the question - it is stated that one can add a Camera with Vision Enhancements to a Micro Drone. ;) Only, one cannot simply add Vision Enhancements to Sensors, and is limited to one kind of additional/enhanced system on a Micro Drone. The questions, whether normal Sensors are even capable to perceive even finer details than signatures, or on what kind of sources the can perceive such signatures are implicit, but not the question I started with. ;)
Imagine a camera like the ones used in cell phones - only smaller, more sophisticated, yet ultimately much more limited by its physical restrictions... its not that a far stretched idea that such a camera would have an restricted effective range. On the other hand, is a fair tool of balancing RFIDs.
Yeah, a Thunderbird without Sensors seems... odd. :S |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:39 PM
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#271
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
What's the point of Passive Targetting:
So, I'm shooting a human with a vehicle mounted weapon. With passive targeting, that would be a -3 as per the signature table (same page). However, without passive targeting I wouldn't have that modifier at all. I guess, to potentially answer my own questions, that passive targeting would be most usefull (or necessary) when trying to fire at something one cannot see, or cannot see well, due to visibility modifiers? |
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Sep 12 2005, 11:45 PM
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#272
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 10-September 05 Member No.: 7,725 |
Well, wouldn't it be beneficial when firing at high signature objects? Or when the gunner's Agility (or Pilot) is severely outstripped by the vehicle's sensor? |
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Sep 13 2005, 12:00 AM
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#273
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, do range modifiers have any effect on passive targeting?
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Sep 13 2005, 05:56 AM
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#274
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
I wouldn't think so, as the range penalties are largely a mechanic to simulate a metahuman's attempt to compensate for distance with their somewhat limited hard computational and visual abilities (which would probably be why they can be completely negated with Visual Magnification). Sensors don't appear to be visual, so effective range should pretty much just be limited to the range of the sensor suite and/or the maximum range of the weapon in question. I believe it's assumed (or meant to be assumed) that the targetting portion of the weapon control subsystem (especially with Clearsight installed) can automatically compensate for range and standard environmental factors (wind direction, etc.) - which is, after all, largely why computers were invented in the first place. |
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Sep 13 2005, 10:25 AM
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#275
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Indeed. One of the first applications of mechanical computation engines (prior even to their use in the WWII Ultra program) was for calculating artillery aiming tables. Kind of an electro-mechanical smartlink, in a way. Fun facts, eh? |
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