 Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging |
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 Dec 10 2005, 05:00 AM
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#451
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729  |
The first place to look would probably be the Universal Device Rating table on p. 214. The text that goes along with it explains it's there so they didn't have to print the matrix/device stats of every wireless device in the book. By that, most vehicles would have average ratings across the board, unless you or the manufacturer takes the time and expense to upgrade. I'd imagine the vehicles that come stock with the higher-rated Pilot software would have the equivalent hardware to run it on, however.
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Dec 10 2005, 05:11 AM
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#452
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 22-October 05 Member No.: 7,875 |
Hmm... Missed that part. Ok then... Thanks for the quick response!!
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Jan 10 2006, 03:36 AM
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#453
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 417 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Fords, NJ Member No.: 8,146 |
Doesn't hacking seem too easy in 4th edition.
Say you have a node with slightly above average ratings (firewall 4, system 4). Then say the team is on a run and they have a few days to comlete it. The hacker has (exploit 3, hacking 5, stealth 4). The hacker could then do a probing hack on the node and with bad rolls he could have admin level access in 7 or 8 hours. With good rolls he could do it in 5 or 6 hours. This is using VR. The system only gets one test with threshold 4. If it misses the hacker can pretty much do whatever he wants in the system. Your thoughts? |
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Jan 10 2006, 01:45 PM
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#454
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
patrolling IC/deckers his icon will be wrong they can notice and attack.
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Jan 10 2006, 06:48 PM
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#455
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
What's the consensus on Autosofts here? Does a Rigger need to be a separate Autosoft for each drone he wants it to run on? Or does every drone run off of the Riggers 'link and thus, they can "share" autosofts? The Drone Rigger archetype just lists them all under an "autosofts" section, and I was kind of expecting them to be listed with a specific drone that they are running on.
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Jan 10 2006, 07:25 PM
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#456
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
As far as it concerns me, they have to be run on the drone itself. Since Piracy is quite common in the shadows (p.228, Source Code an Piracy) the Rigger is probably able to lay his hands on cracked software, or crack it himself given time. Hence he can run this on every drone, but only needs to buy it once. |
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Jan 10 2006, 08:29 PM
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#457
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 417 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Fords, NJ Member No.: 8,146 |
I apologize if this has already been covered but I could not find it.
On page 225 under programs the rulebook states that a device cannot run a program at a rating above its system rating. On page 229 under VR Matrix Perception the rulebook talks about you existing wherever your persona is within the matrix. It says you start out in your commlink and then "move" to other nodes. This leads me to think that when the hacker is hacking a company's network his programs are limited by the system rating of the node he is hacking. Does this seem correct? |
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Jan 11 2006, 10:49 PM
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#458
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
No - you'll always be limited by your system rating - that's where your programs actually are (and run) after all.
Agents, however, might be different - since they can continue to run while you're offline...but I don't think that was ever actually entirely thought through (they stop hogging your system after you offload them, anyway). |
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Jan 11 2006, 11:28 PM
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#459
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Agents run at the response of the node they are on. If you load them onto another node, it will use that node's response.
The rating of any program loaded into an agent is limited by the agent's rating. the agent's rating is essentially it's own system. If the node an agent is run on has a resonse lower than it's rating, it acts at the lesser of the two ratings. This lowers the ratings of all it's programs as well. Questiona: Are agent programs limited by the system ratings of the node they are on, or jsut the response rating? Are agents Systems onto themselves? When you run an agent with 3 programs on your commlink, is it 1 running program (for the agent) or 4 (For the agent and the three programs)? |
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Jan 12 2006, 01:42 AM
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#460
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
This one is still up in the air, I think. They really need to put out a 4th edition ShadowFAQ. |
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Jan 13 2006, 10:10 AM
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#461
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Can the Ocular drone be upgraded with pilot program and autosofts? Can I add sensors to it or is it only used for direct Rigger control? The description is a bit vague but as soon as you pop it out is is supposed to function as a the drone and with the capacity it takes up it should have the same storage capacity as the eyeball drone except perhaps for the flashbang (has image of a flashbang going off INSIDE someones head...)
How would Vision enhancements be handled on the ocular drone if I have installed several vision mods o my cybereye, would that carry over to the drone or would it have to be installed separately on the drone (a bit odd since the whole eye pops out) |
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Jan 20 2006, 02:23 PM
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#462
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
true, but i would go with it being one program. that way you get a nice package deal when using a agent ;) |
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Jan 20 2006, 02:45 PM
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#463
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
There is also, in my mind, some question about whether or not Agents can be stored (in storage memory) preloaded with programs. IMO, allowing that would allow a decker to store an agent with nearly every possible configuration in his nearly infinate storage space, and then just load up which-ever configuation is most convenient with a complex action. The alternative is to say that every time you fetch an Agetn from storage memory and put it into working memory it is a blank-slate. You can load it out with programs, from your working memory (with a complex action each?) but if you don't already have the programs you want your agent to have, it would require a good amount of time to load the agent, load all the programs, load the programs onto the agent, unload the programs, reload your original programs, and then upload the agent. |
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Jan 20 2006, 03:01 PM
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#464
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i would guess you dont realy store a agent with a preloaded set of programs. but what you have is a launch script that basicly load the agent and tell it to load into itself a set of programs available.
still, a agent, complete with kit, can be uploaded to a node. im leaning towards a run in place kind of enviroment for these things. its something that palm uses/used on their pdas. basicly the software is running as if their flash area is ram. no need to load into a seperate memory space or anything like that. it can even resume from where you left it no matter how long ago it was. so when a agent is uploaded its as a ram contruct. this however requires a very abstract way of programing them. something quite similar to .NET or java i think. basicly you would not be able to point directly to memory addresses as they would change the moment a agent is transferd between nodes. its as if i hit pause on the execution of a program, and then is able to tell the os to transfer the whole memory content related to that program over to a diffrent machine. and then tell the os on that machine to resume the program from where it was paused. hibernation on steroid or what?! and to give a deeper explanation of my view of agent and their programs. a agent is the starting prosess. but each program loaded into the agent is a diffrent thread under the agent. kill the agent and all threads attached to its prosess is removed. this indicates to me that programs in SR may have the ability to act both as programs and as librarys ;) |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:32 PM
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#465
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
P. 228 "If you wish for your agent to operate in the Matrix independently, you must load it on a particular node separate from your persona. Th e agent will continue to operate in the Matrix even if your persona goes offl ine. In this case, the agent doesn’t count toward your persona’s active program limits like running programs do, but it does count as a subscriber toward your subscription limit (see p. 212)." On your commlink it counts as a program towards your program limit. In conjunction with. P. 227 "Agents are semi-autonomous programs capable of using other programs." and the rest of description, I would think An AGent + 3 programs on your commlink count as 4 programs. |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:50 PM
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#466
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
Using that ruling would prevent a theoretical Rating 4 Agent who is loaded up with 3 programs as well as a copy of itself. However, it makes it a lot nastier for the hacker who's trying to do something while he has an agent "on deck" before he fires him off to the other node. If a rating 4 agent running 4 programs counts as 5 programs on the hacker's commlink, in order to actually get into the node he wants to dump the agent on, he has to go over his System5 limit on programs, reducing his responce to 4, which is fine... but after uploading the agent it will take 5 simple actions to purge his commlink ofthe agent and its 4 programs, and then 5 complex actions to replace those programs with what he really wanted (necessitating an agent to run the other 4 in the first place). An example might be a hacker who wants his commlink running his usual hacking set of programs, but wants to upload a combat agent (armor, attack, stealth, etc) to "watch his back". Assuming he has a rating 5 commmlink, and his agent is rating 4, and both will be fully equiped with programs, it would take him about 7-8 initiative passes (probably 3 combat rounds) in the node before he's actually ready to go. Possibly that is what the authors intended... but I hope not. Also, Running IC on your commlink would pretty much prevent you from doing anything else with it. :-) |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:13 PM
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#467
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I think the "Payload", p 228, concept is meant for inactive programs with an agent to be loaded as a set.
So loading the agent onto the node is Hacker Complex Action, Load Agent + Payload Hacker Complex Action, Run Agent Then the Agent Acts Agent Complex Action Runs Program 1, Etc the Agent Loads it's programs. Hacker hacks as Agent loads. |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:27 PM
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#468
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, no, its more fun - the Agent has a Pilot acting as its own System - so it would run three Programs on its own System, using the Response of the Node - that System being limited by the Response of the Node it runs on. So, basically, an Agent 6 running 6 Programs joing a Node with Response 1 would suddenly crash, its own Response dropped to -4... The Node running an Agent only runs one Program in the end, though. |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:31 PM
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#469
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
@DireRadient - I was slow to reply
But he'd stil lbe loading those program onto the user's commlink, slowing it to a halt, but I usppose once you upload the agent they would be gone, so that wouldn't be that bad. Major problem being that any IC running on a node would bring it to its knees. |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:35 PM
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#470
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Given the hierarchy in SYstem, that isn't be the case. :)
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Jan 20 2006, 07:25 PM
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#471
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
So a Node may look like this? This one has an agent loaded and the response is not lowered. I think.
NODE - Response 4, Signal 4, System 4, Firewall 4 Program 1 - Agent 6 - Response = Node Response, Signal = Node Signal, System = Pilot 6(Node System Limit = 4), -- Hacking Program 6 (System 4) -- Common Use Program 6 (4) -- Program 6 (4) -- Program 6 (4) Program 2 Program 3 Program 4 Scenarios If the Agent runs another program on it's own system, does it affect only it's own response rating, or the entire node? If the Node runs another program, I assume it affects both it's own Response and the Agents Response. |
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Jan 20 2006, 08:25 PM
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#472
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,185 |
Apologies if this was asked already, but I didn't want to read all 19 pages.
In vehicle combat, you fire weapons by using your extra passes? Is this how it works? |
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Jan 20 2006, 11:17 PM
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#473
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,582 |
As I understand it, yes.
It takes a complex action per combat turn to drive a vehicle. So all additional initiative passes you have, you can use for other actions. (using sensors, firing weapons, commanding drones, etc, etc.) |
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Jan 21 2006, 08:29 PM
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#474
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
quick Q:
Do you NEED a control rig in order to use drones? or can you just give them commands (like in the captain's chair mode in SR3) see what they see, and let thier built in pilot ratings take care of it?? |
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Jan 21 2006, 09:41 PM
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#475
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
I don't think you need the control Rig. having one just gives you +2 dice to vehicle skill tests while you're jumped into it. For riggers who spend lots of time in car-chase scenes, that is great, but in my experience you can certainly get by without one. |
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