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> Shadowrun 4: Combat & Gear
Autarkis
post Sep 11 2005, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Tom Rooney is a true joker.
Just zoom in on the combat glasses, or the pain inducer.

Wouldn't the combat glasses quote be a little painful and uncomfortable for both parties?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 12 2005, 05:36 PM
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Armor Modifications range from 1-6.

What, except from a lack of cash, hinders one to get all of them at level 6?

QUOTE (Autarkis)
Wouldn't the combat glasses quote be a little painful and uncomfortable for both parties?

judging from the fact that bigger prothetics are made today, I imagine the Pain Induce Quote much more ugly in the same contexts. ;)
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blakkie
post Sep 12 2005, 06:20 PM
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Seeking clarification on recoil.

Since the example in the BBB is the suxxor, i'd like one that is more enlightening:

First Simple Action I fire my SMG in a [3 round] burst. My SMG has 1 point of recoil compensation, so after removing one point from the -2 recoil I have a -1 recoil penaly that applies to that attack. For the second Simple Action i fire another [3 round] burst at the same target. For this attack do i have a -3 recoild modifer (what is listed for the second burst in the Ranged Attack Modifiers table) to apply to my dice pool or do i have a -4 modifer (-3 for the second burst plus the -1 recoil modifier that applied to the first attack)?
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sapphire_wyvern
post Sep 13 2005, 12:44 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 13 2005, 04:20 AM)
Seeking clarification on recoil.

Since the example in the BBB is the suxxor, i'd like one that is more enlightening:

First Simple Action I fire my SMG in a [3 round] burst. My SMG has 1 point of recoil compensation, so after removing one point from the -2 recoil I have a -1 recoil penaly that applies to that attack. For the second Simple Action i fire another [3 round] burst at the same target. For this attack do i have a -3 recoild modifer (what is listed for the second burst in the Ranged Attack Modifiers table) to apply to my dice pool or do i have a -4 modifer (-3 for the second burst plus the -1 recoil modifier that applied to the first attack)?

Since no one else seems to have mentioned it so far...

As well as the Fichetti Pain Inducer and the Monofilament Chainsaw, there is one another amusing new piece I can't recall seeing before:

The Elephant Rifle.

Two barrel, break-action rifle that does more damage than either of the core-book sniper rifles, although its armor penetration is worse. And you can fire both barrels together for even more damage!

What's more, it's only Restricted, while the sniper rifles are Forbidden. Why do I get the feeling that a lot more shadowrunners are now going to have "Really Big Game Hunting" knowledge skills? :D
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MortVent
post Sep 13 2005, 01:16 AM
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well have you seen those damn armadillos running around texas and the great plains? :-P
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kigmatzomat
post Sep 13 2005, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern)

What's more, it's only Restricted, while the sniper rifles are Forbidden. Why do I get the feeling that a lot more shadowrunners are now going to have "Really Big Game Hunting" knowledge skills?

I was running a 2-gunfu type with paired SuperWarhawks. Well, he referred to them as BFRs: Biggest, Finest, Revolvers. Right now, in the real world, Magnum Research makes BFR's in .44, .45, .454, and the horrifying .500 and .45-70. The last two are almost half-again as powerful as the 454. And holy god, is the .500 a big gun. The range I belong to has one availabe for rent.

These massive examples of machismo actually serve a purpose: self defense from bears and other large predators you may encounter when hunting or on safari in the bush. My character's story was he left London "for his health," ended up in North Africa bodyguarding some rich folks on safari and kept the BFRs as part of his payment before he migrated around to Hong Kong and then Seattle.

Now switch it to 2070 where you have meta-tigers, shapeshifters, and drakes out there.
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hobgoblin
post Sep 13 2005, 02:53 AM
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self defence against bears and other large predators?

last time i checked bears do not go after people unless get to close to their cubs or drop in unexpected (sounds a bit like some people with guns in a way :silly: ).

now if we are talking big cats thats a diffrent story as they seems to think of everything smaller then say a elephant as a walking meal. thank god we are not the prefered meat.

still, i can see more use for big guns in the way of self defence in the 6th world, for reasons allready stated. we are no longer near the top of the food chain. most likely the only thing keeping us alive are massive amounts of firepower and the rareity of the big beasts...

on that subject. what other creatures besides dragons and spirits are coverd by the big book this time round? i kinda liked how SR2 had a small section of monster you could drop in at times to point out that hello, this isnt our world any more :P (as if that 2+ M and 300+ Kg with horns at the door was not a indication enough :silly: )
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hahnsoo
post Sep 13 2005, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
on that subject. what other creatures besides dragons and spirits are coverd by the big book this time round? i kinda liked how SR2 had a small section of monster you could drop in at times to point out that hello, this isnt our world any more :P (as if that 2+ M and 300+ Kg with horns at the door was not a indication enough :silly: )

From this particularly informative thread by Talia:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9582

Barghest, devil rat, ghoul, hell hound, merrow, naga, sasquatch, thunderbird, vampire, wendigo, spirit of: air, beasts, earth, fire, man, water, watchers, eastern and western dragons, feathered serpents, leviathans and great dragon mods.
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hobgoblin
post Sep 13 2005, 03:12 AM
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enough to have a unprepaired team call uncle :P

nothing like having them run into a wendigo when up north looking for out of the way corp property ;)

add some bad weather and presto, things start to get realy interesting :vegm:
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kigmatzomat
post Sep 13 2005, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
self defence against bears and other large predators?

last time i checked bears do not go after people unless get to close to their cubs or drop in unexpected (sounds a bit like some people with guns in a way

This is where that Big Game Hunting Knowsoft comes in handy.

Since technically any hiker in the back country "drops by unexpected" as far as the bear is concerned, bears are a threat. Bad karma can mean that a group of nature-friendly, granola eating hippy-types venturing into remote areas walk around a tree and find Mama Bear and her three cubs. If these are 60's ultra-peacenik hippy icons you'd see on TV they offer the Bear some weed, get eaten, and possibly get the bears high. If these are rational hippies that want to live, they speak softly and slowly raise their arms out to the sides to look less like other animals, staying low to look short, avoid eye contact, and draw one of these BFRs while praying they don't need to pull the trigger.

Most people, including park rangers, in those areas would carry a rifle. Rifles, however, are hunting weapons suitable for use at range. This alone can get you in trouble with some rangers or property owners who think you are poaching. Alternately, someone else could be poaching and you get blamed for it. A BFRevolver is pretty much useless for hunting at ranges beyond 100 yards. Even if you've got it sighted in at 100 yards, at 50 yards you've got ~3" of loft. Besides, the slug of a .500/454/45-70 is significantly different from that of a .30-06, .300 magnum or many of the typical hunting rifles. As long as your BFR doesn't have a scope, you probably aren't hunting.

But I digress a bit. Shadowrunners are quite likely to be asked to go gallivanting around the wilderness for many reasons. Guard duty for smugglers, helping the mage quest for some talismongering, a classic bug hunt, making a run on a facility whose primary defense is isolation, etc.

Many such tasks are legal, or at least sufficiently legal that a fake SIN can manage the licenses, giving you justification for your BFR and possibly some of your cyber.
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Elldren
post Sep 13 2005, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
Many such tasks are legal, or at least sufficiently legal that a fake SIN can manage the licenses, giving you justification for your BFR and possibly some of your cyber.

Or, failing that, relatively convincing fake licenses are affordable and not too difficult to get.
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ef31415
post Sep 15 2005, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (the_dunner)
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
like say downloading the wireing diagram of a maglock from shadowland when you need to get thru that door NOW!?

I don't think that's quite relevant.
[ Spoiler ]

Maybe, maybe not. The last we heard of the Captain was that his matrix identity had survived, but was looking at a
DELETE? [Y/N]
prompt.

When the somebody asks you if you want to delete yourself, say NO!

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hahnsoo
post Sep 15 2005, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (ef31415)
Maybe, maybe not. The last we heard of the Captain was that his matrix identity had survived, but was looking at a
DELETE? [Y/N]
prompt.

When the somebody asks you if you want to delete yourself, say NO!

[ Spoiler ]
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cartoonlad
post Sep 18 2005, 05:57 AM
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Looking over the rules, I don't see why anyone would ever upgrade their cyberware.

You lose Essence when installing cyber and bioware and once gone, it's gone. Say you've got a character with two full cyberlimbs, purchased at chargen as basic cyberware. That's a 2 point Essence hole right there. Later in the game, the character wants to upgrade to delta-grade limbs, which only would do 1 point of Essence loss. Is the character's new Essence total 3 or 4?

My gut feeling is she doesn't lose any additional Essence because of this, but she then doesn't have 1 full point of Essence to play with, such as being able to buy 1 free point of headware as that surgery and replacement of body parts would do Essence damage.

So why would anyone ever want to upgrade? It seems that cybered and bio-modified characters are at a disadvantage by not having any incentive to to upgrade to better 'ware when every other type of character seems to be able to improve their abilities in some way. All they get is a huge bill from the street doc.

It seems that if you really want to play a heavily-cybered or bio-modified character, you should play a non-cybered character for several game sessions until you can afford to get your arms and legs lopped off. (Which is too much like a D&D Prestige Class for me: "You want to play this type of character? Well, try playing this other type of character for a few months first.")
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hahnsoo
post Sep 18 2005, 07:36 AM
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Traditionally, removing and replacing a piece of cyberware with a higher grade version leaves an Essence "hole" which you can use up with other upgrades. In other words, every time you gain a new piece of 'ware, you calculate the current Essence Loss total based on the addition of the new 'ware. While you can't regain Essence this way, you can forestall further Essence loss of new implants by leaving open the difference between the old and new part's Essence cost.

I don't see any specific language in the book that prevents this for any reason. Also, such rules weren't really described in full in any of the BBB's (AFAIK).
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mintcar
post Sep 18 2005, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
Seeking clarification on recoil.

Since the example in the BBB is the suxxor, i'd like one that is more enlightening:

First Simple Action I fire my SMG in a [3 round] burst. My SMG has 1 point of recoil compensation, so after removing one point from the -2 recoil I have a -1 recoil penaly that applies to that attack. For the second Simple Action i fire another [3 round] burst at the same target. For this attack do i have a -3 recoild modifer (what is listed for the second burst in the Ranged Attack Modifiers table) to apply to my dice pool or do i have a -4 modifer (-3 for the second burst plus the -1 recoil modifier that applied to the first attack)?

I think the old way were the second shot would recieve the uncompencated modifiers from the first shot was good, but I do think that is not the case anymore. Try reading the rules for recoil like you didn´t know about the former mechanics:
QUOTE
Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suff er from an escalating recoil modifi er as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only. Burst-fi re weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fi red in that Action Phase and –3 for the second. Long bursts suff er –5 (fi rst burst in phase) or –6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer –9 recoil. Characters can only counter a recoil modifier with recoil compensation or gyro stabilization

Wouldn´t you say that it seems pretty clear then? You would never think the recoil from the first shot carried over to the second if that was not the case in previous editions.
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Fortune
post Sep 18 2005, 05:18 PM
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Rob has already answered this question in this thread. As you can see, uncompensated recoil does indeed carry over to the second shot/burst.
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mintcar
post Sep 19 2005, 10:33 PM
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:) That needs an errata. There is no way to guess that by reading what it says in the rulebook unless you played previous editions. Heh, it says "escalating modifier" then there´s a series of examples of how the second shot gets a greater modifier, thereby eliminating any assumptions about the "escalating modifier" phrase indicating accumulation. (wonder why they added the extra complication of increasing recoil modifiers for the second shot if the modifiers are still cumulative anyway!!?? It feels like this will get some frowns from my players when I try to explain how recoil works.)
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blakkie
post Sep 19 2005, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
:) That needs an errata. There is no way to guess that by reading what it says in the rulebook unless you played previous editions. Heh, it says "escalating modifier" then there´s a series of examples of how the second shot gets a greater modifier, thereby eliminating any assumptions about the "escalating modifier" phrase indicating accumulation. (wonder why they added the extra complication of increasing recoil modifiers for the second shot if the modifiers are still cumulative anyway!!?? It feels like this will get some frowns from my players when I try to explain how recoil works.)

Just print off the example i started and Rob finished. It covers all the stuff.
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mintcar
post Sep 20 2005, 09:35 AM
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If only the actual rules in the book could be so clear... It´s a bit funny that they managed to screw up that explanation so horribly bad :) .
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 22 2005, 09:48 AM
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Since Cyberware Scanners now are cheap, passive sensors based on millimetric video, possible even for RFID Sensor tags, I'm wondering whether we'll see Millimetric Vision as Eye Enhancements (with a fixed capacity cost like Thermographic Vision) in Augmention.
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Azralon
post Sep 27 2005, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 25 2005, 02:51 AM)
QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Aug 24 2005, 11:55 PM)
Do wound modifiers affect movement rates? i always find it fishy when an rpg allows half-dead characters to sprint around while holding their guts in.

They effect sprinting which requires a skill test and wound modifiers affect skill tests.

But it does not look like they affect running rates, unless they decrease initiative score to 0. Then the character gets no actions. Running requires an action.

Just noticed something fragged. If wound modifiers reduce a characters initiative score to 0, they get no actions. However, walking requires no action to perform, so the character could just walk away.

Well, it'd be more like "If your character is that messed up, all he can manage to do is move around. He can't run; the best he can manage is walking speed."
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Azralon
post Sep 27 2005, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Sep 10 2005, 10:47 AM)
I grabbed my physics from here.  I skimmed the article and saw the max range was 340m but missed the section on wind resistance reducing it to 240m. 

If we use a modern bow with increased efficiency (e=1.1) and a much more aerodynamic arrow (c=0.0005) the max range (factoring in wind resistance) goes up to ~330m.  Now let's double the mass of the arrow and double the arrow length.  This troll bow with the same pull as a medieval longbow goes to 475m.  Since the English had entire units of archers, let's say that was for strength 5. 

Triple the pull on the bow to STR:15, since I think SR4 strength scales linearly, and you get an absolute max range of 1100m.  While this is the "spray and pray" range, it is still laws-of-physics possible.  :eek:

FYI, I did the math on this for SR2 once I'd finshed enough engineering courses in college so I already knew these grade of bows were plausible.

I recall doing the math on an SR3 bow fired by a Giant (Troll variant subrace) with max strength. If he could fire one arrow and hit a target at his maximum range every combat turn (3 seconds), then his projectiles would have to be breaking the sound barrier.

So basically you're looking at a slim supersonic missile. Be sure to Dikote the thing so you can take on tanks.

.... With your BOW. :eek:

EDIT: Curiosity got the best of me, and yep travelling 1100 meters in 3 seconds is just slightly supersonic. With the inclusion of additional initative passes, one has to wonder when sanity should clear its throat and speak up. :)
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RunnerPaul
post Sep 27 2005, 07:38 PM
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This may just be me, but so what if the arrows end up supersonic? The tip of a cracking bullwhip goes supersonic too. Yet no one worries about a guy attacking a tank with a bullwhip.
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Nikoli
post Sep 27 2005, 07:44 PM
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Ya know, the supersonic arrow is fine with me as a GM, for one sinple thing. the bow at that point is no longer "silent" as the arrow creates a boom (and consequently so does the string IIRC) so no silence without magic, and it becomes a very obvious weapon when used.
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