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> Ork and Troll creation, How do you do it?
Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 24 2005, 11:30 PM
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I've never had a player play a troll, before. In the upcoming SR4, one of my players plans to.
Considering that trolls get -2 to Charisma, how do you go about creating one in SR4.

Since everyone automatically gets 1 point in everything for free does that mean that they start with a 0 but pay like they had a 1? Do they just start at 0 and pay like normal?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 24 2005, 11:38 PM
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You start at 1 or higher, regardless of your race. There are no 0's or negative attribute values in SR4 character creation (unless you are talking about Magic or Resonance, which is 0 for non Awakened/Technomancers, obviously). The cost to play each race has been prorated appropriately.
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tisoz
post Aug 25 2005, 12:07 AM
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It looks like the positive modifiers get added on to the 1 point you start with, and the negative modifiers only limit the maximums.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 25 2005, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
It looks like the positive modifiers get added on to the 1 point you start with, and the negative modifiers only limit the maximums.

Ahh, this explains the cost of some characters
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Wintermancer
post Aug 25 2005, 01:28 AM
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Hmm. Now that makes me curious then. From looking at what I've seen of the rules so far, it's hard to tell if they mean you can only purchase attributes up to 6, or you can only buy up to 6 points of attributes.

What I mean is, can a metatype with a +1 to an attribute, per se, buy 6 points in chargen and get a 7, or are they still limited to a 6 in that attribute but get the second point for free?

Winter
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hahnsoo
post Aug 25 2005, 01:33 AM
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Erm, not quite. Say you are an Elf, and you have a 2 in Agility with a max at 7. It would take you 40 BP to get up to a 6 in Agility. If you Maxed Out your stat and got it to 7, it would take you 25 BP to get that stat at max, or 65 BP total for a 7 Agility.

On the other hand, say you are a Dwarf and have a 1 in Reaction with a max at 5. It would take 30BP to take you to 4, and if you Max Out Reaction, then it costs 25 BP or 55 BP total for a Reaction of 5.
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Wintermancer
post Aug 25 2005, 01:43 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Erm, not quite. Say you are an Elf, and you have a 2 in Agility with a max at 7. It would take you 40 BP to get up to a 6 in Agility. If you Maxed Out your stat and got it to 7, it would take you 25 BP to get that stat at max, or 65 BP total for a 7 Agility.

On the other hand, say you are a Dwarf and have a 1 in Reaction with a max at 5. It would take 30BP to take you to 4, and if you Max Out Reaction, then it costs 25 BP or 55 BP total for a Reaction of 5.

Erm. I follow your first example, but for some reason the dwarf one completely lost me. :(
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hahnsoo
post Aug 25 2005, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (Wintermancer)
Erm. I follow your first example, but for some reason the dwarf one completely lost me. :(

No matter what, the last point that you can buy in a stat, or your "Racial Max" is always going to cost 25BP. Say you have a Troll with a stat of 1 in Charisma and a Racial Max of 4. It takes 20BP to build it up to a 3. If you Maxed Out the stat as a 4, it would cost 25BP for that last point, or 45 BP total for the Charisma of 4.
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Wintermancer
post Aug 25 2005, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Wintermancer @ Aug 24 2005, 08:43 PM)
Erm. I follow your first example, but for some reason the dwarf one completely lost me.  :(

No matter what, the last point that you can buy in a stat, or your "Racial Max" is always going to cost 25BP. Say you have a Troll with a stat of 1 in Charisma and a Racial Max of 4. It takes 20BP to build it up to a 3. If you Maxed Out the stat as a 4, it would cost 25BP for that last point, or 45 BP total for the Charisma of 4.

Ah, ok! Now I follow you. Thanks!

Winter
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tisoz
post Aug 25 2005, 02:28 AM
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You don't have to "buy up" to 1 attributes with negative modifiers any more. They automatically start at one. The negative modifier limits how high it can go.
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Aristotle
post Aug 25 2005, 02:54 AM
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That is excellent news, and should make character generation a bit easier to explain to first time players. I've had folks get caught up on the whole "buy it to lose it" thing.
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Milo Simpkin
post Aug 25 2005, 06:04 AM
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Ummmm okay. Not sure I like this at all.

So basically if you were wanting a character with an Intelligence (sorry Logic :)) and Charisma of 3, the opting to play a troll hasn't impacted into that at all apart from giving you state boost in Body and Strength. Is that right? Because the negative racial modifiers are only saying 'you can only buy these up to 4' but the potivie ones are 'here have free points'?
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JBlades
post Aug 25 2005, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Milo Simpkin)
Ummmm okay. Not sure I like this at all.

So basically if you were wanting a character with an Intelligence (sorry Logic :)) and Charisma of 3, the opting to play a troll hasn't impacted into that at all apart from giving you state boost in Body and Strength. Is that right? Because the negative racial modifiers are only saying 'you can only buy these up to 4' but the potivie ones are 'here have free points'?

Accurate, but remember that the bonuses aren't really free points. Essentially, your buying discounted points in a package deal called "Troll", the down side of which is that you top out lower in a few attributes.
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Milo Simpkin
post Aug 25 2005, 06:28 AM
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True, but it does kind of skew things if you look at it in some ways.

Example 1: Someone wants to take '4' in everything. As a human they buy everything to 4 except Edge whish they buy to 3. For 30 build points to play an elf you only need to buy Agility to 3 and Charisma to 2 (saving 30 points) but you need to pay an extra 10 points in Edge. You gain Low light, but with natural Lowlight being the same as technical lowlight in the case of image mods now I presume that's not much worth the 10 BP. If you get around to maxing some stats then you get the advantage of being able to take it higher later but you will also suffer racism.

Example 2: Again looking at taking things to 4 at start. As a human you pay 240BP to get the base 8 stats to 4 and another 20 to get Edge to 4. Total 260BP. As an Ork you can save 30 points in Strength, 20 in Body, pay and extra 10 for Edge, and 20 to be an Ork for a net saving of 10 points. Okay your Charisma, Logic and Edge are limited buy 1 point from the human's max, but your Strength can be bought 2 higher and your Body 3 higher. So you end up with a total 2 points extra in how high your stats can be bought. Again you suffer the racism and get Lowlight, but still.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 25 2005, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (Milo Simpkin)
True, but it does kind of skew things if you look at it in some ways.

Example 1: Someone wants to take '4' in everything. As a human they buy everything to 4 except Edge whish they buy to 3. For 30 build points to play an elf you only need to buy Agility to 3 and Charisma to 2 (saving 30 points) but you need to pay an extra 10 points in Edge. You gain Low light, but with natural Lowlight being the same as technical lowlight in the case of image mods now I presume that's not much worth the 10 BP. If you get around to maxing some stats then you get the advantage of being able to take it higher later but you will also suffer racism.

Example 2: Again looking at taking things to 4 at start. As a human you pay 240BP to get the base 8 stats to 4 and another 20 to get Edge to 4. Total 260BP. As an Ork you can save 30 points in Strength, 20 in Body, pay and extra 10 for Edge, and 20 to be an Ork for a net saving of 10 points. Okay your Charisma, Logic and Edge are limited buy 1 point from the human's max, but your Strength can be bought 2 higher and your Body 3 higher. So you end up with a total 2 points extra in how high your stats can be bought. Again you suffer the racism and get Lowlight, but still.

So 3 in everything trolls are the new Über-munch?
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tisoz
post Aug 25 2005, 03:31 PM
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There is that 40 BP cost, but it makes you wonder why there is a troll magician sample character.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 25 2005, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
So 3 in everything trolls are the new Über-munch?

For starting characters? Perhaps. Remember that you lose out on Racial Maxes in many key attributes, and thus your max dice in those areas will be much less than the comparable human. I think true Munchkins look at character limits rather than "how much I can get as a level 1 character".
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2bit
post Aug 25 2005, 05:36 PM
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still seems like a bargain to me. In my eyes, choosing metahuman should be an investment, not an impulse buy. I think there's too much benefit for the cost in this edition.
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tisoz
post Aug 25 2005, 05:45 PM
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I think it should be a preference or because of background.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 25 2005, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (2bit)
still seems like a bargain to me. In my eyes, choosing metahuman should be an investment, not an impulse buy. I think there's too much benefit for the cost in this edition.

Well, considering that the two attributes that Orks and Trolls get bonuses for are also linked to the fewest skills, you aren't getting too much of a benefit. Elves, on the other hand, get bonuses to Charisma and Agility, two highly-linked attributes, and their cost is prorated appropriately (you actually lose out about 10 points because of the +1 Edge humans get). While it is true that you won't have to really purchase any points of Body or Strength, an investment of 40 points (as a Troll) would get you a Body 3 Strength 3 anyway, and an investment of 20 points (as an Ork) would get you a Body 2 Strength 2, both as a Human (which means +1 Edge, and you don't have to worry about the lowered attribute caps). Really, the only time you'll get a real bang for the racial investment buck is if you are playing a character that an Ork or Troll is well-suited for anyway (Street Sam, Tank, or Ganger/Melee combat specialist).
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2bit
post Aug 25 2005, 05:58 PM
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I almost added that to my post; definitely, character concept should trump. Historically, however, SR has made the price of being metahuman somewhat reflect their demographic status as minorities. Part of what you were paying for was their rarity. If someone wanted to be metahuman X, they didn't mind paying the extra cost, but a bargain-hunting min/maxer would shy away.

Metahumans are arguably good "buys" for starting characters from a purely bang-for-the-BP perspective, which I am disappointed in. that's all.
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mintcar
post Aug 26 2005, 10:42 AM
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I have always houseruled this part because it was never ballanced. As you said, you payed for the demographics which is silly. In the 2:nd edition (never played the first) I houseruled what would later be the canon rules, by counting the net extra attribute points you got and what priority that should be worth. Puting A in race was just stupid, that had to be changed. I guess this might need to be changed too. Would be easy to adjust the BP cost to the actual benefits.
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