 I can't believe this!, Cheaters and AIs |
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 Aug 25 2005, 03:13 PM
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#51
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Great, I'm a Dragon...  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698  |
I re-read your former posting: seems i misunderstood your intention, sorry. :)
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Aug 25 2005, 03:15 PM
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#52
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
But don't forget that if it is aware of what is happening to it and why, it just might harbour a grudge: against its creator primarily, but also possibly against the team as a whole :) |
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Aug 25 2005, 03:25 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Sounds like an overreaction. I might make him buy the next pizza for the group. After all, the cheating was caught and nothing bad happened. It's not like the guy ran around killing other PCs without good cause.
I'd suggest dumbing down the AI to the abilities of a PC decker, not one of SR's standard super-decker SKs or god-like AIs. Make the AI a "brain in a box" without exceptional abilities (in terms of intellect or decking). Say the PC concentrated so much on making the AI "truly sentient" that he neglected the other features. |
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Aug 25 2005, 04:11 PM
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#54
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It would be the same as I fast talk them into paying me for more crap the next time I unload onto them. I talks to them and makes my roll against said canon TN with abovementioned dice(loaded if possible). There are no rules, you do whatever you need to do to win. Isn't that how it goes in the shadows? How long do you think it would take for your enemies to figure out who you unload to and lean on them and you or your enemies have to kill them for being liabilities? How long before you are caught using loaded dice? Does it make any difference anyway? |
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Aug 25 2005, 04:56 PM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Depends mostly on whether you play your contacts as reasonably intelligent or not. My guess is that a fence who remains in business would almost have to be. There are no rules (beyond the game mechanics, that is): but the nature of future dealings with reasonably intelligent contacts -- as with most people in real life -- is based on the nature of past dealings. Which would suggest that yes, you certainly could try to "cheat" in talking someone into something in your favour and against theirs each and every time ... but if they realise this after the fact, especially once you've established that this is your pattern, per
they may start to make sure you never get a chance to fast talk them in future, maybe by not dealing with you in future at all. It's easy enough to set some kind of perimeter up (threefold: physical, electronic, word-of-mouth), such that you can't talk with them directly. It's not even something the GM as such does to you, just the consequences of your own actions coming home to roost.
Well, that's always the case, whether or not you're trying to pull a fast one over on people you regularly deal with.
In the specific case in this thread, one extended AI-creation roll. Whether or not it makes any difference as to how long, ask the creator of this thread. |
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Aug 25 2005, 06:35 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
I have not played in a long time. There is no one around here that plays. But I would use a laptop and dice roller. It saves time, and cheating. I am a huge fan of software tools. Although it does remove some of the tactile fun of it. Like reading a pdf or blog vs a book.
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Aug 25 2005, 07:35 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Pretty much, it's as Talia said: Bookstores tend to frown on furious screaming. In fact, they tend to frown on it even more when they can hear it on the other side of walls they thought to be soundproofed (the guy decided to wave damages on us because of the amount of money he got from the resulting lawsuit). |
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Aug 25 2005, 07:56 PM
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#58
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
The GM decided that the SK rolled for became an AI due to the interaction with the players. IIRC you said that the players had a blast. This being so, I would keep the AI in existence but have it leave. The Matrix is huge and the concerns of these primitive organic lifeforms (the players) are trivial to its huge intellect. How it behaves towards the players would depend on how they treated it; ranging from the affection one feels towards a somewhat dim relative to utter loathing.
Being a sadistic GM I would not have killed the cheater with a freak lightning bolt, I would have made him have a fatal stroke due to the shock of the revelation that he had discovered THE SECRET of how to create AI's. However, as that character is dead, he will never know the secret and can never find it again! A friend and member of my SR group regularly hits TNs of 30+ no matter whose dice she uses. She's just lucky. I usually have trouble rolling above 5! |
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Aug 25 2005, 08:05 PM
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#59
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Sabosect, why not grow the heck up then? If you get a cheater, just tell him to pack his things. Furious screaming? Way to perpetuate the steryotypes...
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Aug 25 2005, 08:12 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
ShadowDragon, why not grow up and realize that the stereotypes exist and that some groups and some people are living stereotypes? Yeah, there really is a group of overweight DnD players who know more about Star Trek than they do about girls out there. Yes, my group will scream at you for cheating, and attempt to later get revenge for it. And, finally, as I said: On the player, not my call. There is a form of ettiquette when dealing with the rulings of other GMs.
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Aug 25 2005, 09:40 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
My $0.02.
I have not played SR since the old First Ed waaaaay back. However I ave been a GM since then. In regards to the cheater: Put his ass on probation, provided he surrenders the loaded die/dice to be destroyed by the GM (Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Loaded d6...) in front of the others. Test 'em, prove they are the dice then destroy them in front of everybody. Let him know he has no more chances. He flies right, or he gets fired out of the group. *I admit I have "bumped" dice from time to time myself, but I have never thought to bring loaded dice to a game, yeesh* In regards to the AI: If I am not mistaken, Deus required the computing power of a freaking Arcology to have the processes & memory space he needed to exist. An Arcology. It would take twelve such three story buildings packed absolutely full with no space for anything else to match that kind of process ability/storage I'm betting. I think that you should get rid of the "Highly advanced SK" with a tragic fire wherein the system gets fried, but the Fire Department gets there before any other serious damage can be done. Maybe just enough to wipe out a few hundred :nuyen: worth of memory in which the core/seed/kernel code was kept. When the party tries to reboot him with the stored memory, the spark isn't there to bring the code to sentience this time. |
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Aug 25 2005, 10:06 PM
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#62
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The AI potnetially has access to every host on the Matrix for its distrubuted computing needs. |
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Aug 26 2005, 12:03 AM
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#63
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It does not matter whether you play your contacts as reasonably intelligent or not. There are no rules for that. Or rather even if you do pull the same stunt each time every time, unless you screw up your roll, they will never realise the fact. You still have them as a contact. Game mechanically, you still get to talk to them. As much as you would like to have a "perimeter" set up, the NPC will still talk to the PC anyway as long as the player did pay "upkeep" for the contact. You may make the PC lose the NPC as a contact if he does not upkeep but that is as far as it goes in terms of rules. My point is that from the perspective of a me-first shadowrunner, NPC contacts are inherently expendable. Milk them for what they are worth and toss them away. Just like the player milked his loaded dice for what they are worth and had his fun for that roll. If the selfish/calculative/etc IC attitude split over to his OOC attitude, he might be milking his fellow players and GM for what fun they might provide. |
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Aug 26 2005, 12:29 AM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Why even set such a high TN? Just say that the idea of making an AI is stupid and munchkinous and shouldn't be allowed.
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Aug 26 2005, 12:33 AM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Cheating is far worse, IMO. If someone decides to make his character keep randomly attacking other characters, at least that's out in the open, everyone knows what's going on, and it's by the book. Cheating with weighted dice, on the other hand, is an attempt to decieve the whole group for the sake of a single individual who can't deal with dying in a freaking game. Cheaters should be kicked out and sent back to kindergarten so they can learn that sometimes when you play a game you don't win. |
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Aug 26 2005, 12:49 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
And this wouldn't gain the attention of say, how many major corps and deckers (soon to be Hackers) how? Some of these fellows would be more than happy to erm... track the bugger down then throw a fiery bottle of naptha and dish detergent into the mix. Also, I was under the impression that the AI was still relatively contained, against just such an occurrence as that described above. |
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Aug 26 2005, 01:11 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
I think setting numbers like that is a reflection of the odds of it happening, and I think that it shows GM's flexibility. I would have done the same thing. With the loaded die, I find that remarkable that anyone would try that. I would have handled things like the GM did. instant dead pc. (I love the idea of knowing the secret to making AI's then dying.) As for the AI, I think I would chaulked it up to a technical glitch. The AI did exist, then destabilized and burned out all of the hardware irrevocably. |
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Aug 26 2005, 01:20 AM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
OK, after some rumination, I figured out the ideal solution to this whole mess.
1.) The AI, unfortunately, turns out to be exactly like the AI/supercomputer/hologram generator from the 80s cartoon show "Jem" (sp?). In other words, it's only function is to be able to project flawlessly convincing holograms through a pair of gaudy women's earrings upon verbal command. Furthermore, because the AI is completely sick and mental, these holograms will only serve to make you like a 80s female pop star. 2.) The cheater....the only character he's allowed to play now is the main character from the "Jem" TV show. She's an ordinary 80s teenage girl, but her earrings let her transform into a holographically enhanced pop star instantly. She leads a double life, being a regular girl on the one hand, but being a famous star on the other. 3.) The cheater's character will forevermore be burndened by the other female characters from the "Jem" show, which follow her around. I understand that this consists of an annoying younger sister and some Asian karate/80s aerobics girl, and a couple of others. Whenever he wants to play with you, he has to play "Jem", and that's just the way it is. That, my friends, would be justice. |
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Aug 26 2005, 11:59 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I don't think I could do that because the people I game with have been my friends for over a decade, sometimes two decades. Compared to what we've been through in real life, cheating on a few dice rolls is cause for a laugh and razzing the cheater. (Past 2 months: one dead mother, one house hit by a car, one long-time friend butchered with a samurai sword. Past decade: girl friends cheating within the group, college and jobs sending people across the world, and we're still gaming together.) I mean, I go to a funeral with someone 6 weeks ago and I should tell them, "Piss off, go back to kindergarten for fudging those dice rolls last night?" That'd require some mixed-up priorities. In high school - 12-15 years ago for most of the group - there were shouting matches over rules interpretations, game boards being flipped across the room for dice cheating, and that sort of crap. But it's like, who gives a damn now? If you cheat egregiously enough, your penance is to buy a pizza or the next round of beers, roll your dice where everyone can watch, and put up with the razzing for (being caught) cheating like a man. The only gamer who regularly cheated and was ostracized from the group was just personally annoying. He was shunned more for being an irritant than cheating. With his cheating, we just had someone doublecheck the numbers on his character sheet and watch some of his dice rolls. (We also tried to not let him GM, but that was because his runs were as irritating as he was.) |
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Aug 26 2005, 01:23 PM
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#70
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 13-August 05 From: Airstrip One Member No.: 7,553 |
If you want to continue playing with these idiots (and I don't know why you would...) then why not have the AI realise its situation and get itself extracted from the runners by some corporation? ("what's that black chopper doing at the window?")
Or the AI decides to strike out on its own and get rid of the players. By... say... accessing Lonestar's mainframe and downloading a list of all their undercover operatives, personnel records and some "interesting files" concerning the activities of a senior exec who wants them kept secret...). Or the AI is just a child... a super intelligent child, but just a child. It has to learn how the world works, assimilate information and self-educate. It might take years, it might start "inquiring" into the Zurich Orbital bank to find out where money goes and other whacky/massively dangerous pursuits. Or it's scared and lonely? It needs a friend before it will trust anyone enough to help out. Another AI perhaps? Deus? Or the PC's have to build another AI? Or it flat-out just doesn't care about them. They are redundant inorganics who through a statistically improbably occurance have created their own superior. There is no shame in becoming outdated, it's evolution... |
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Aug 26 2005, 01:44 PM
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#71
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You think they would cheat despite all that? It's certainly possible, but I consider that sort of connection to typically be a strong disincentive to cheating in and of itself. In any event, the tone of the first post makes it clear that that isn't the case here. ~J |
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Aug 26 2005, 02:06 PM
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#72
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Heh. Yes, because the connection usually keeps players from ratting out another to the GM, depending on the circumstances. :D
Oh, well. Different group, different behaviors, and groups change. I don't think I've seen a good shouting match at one of my games in 7 or 8 years. :) |
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Aug 26 2005, 02:13 PM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
No comments on the screaming match, except to say that I don't think we've ever had one (despite some strong differences of opinion, sometimes), and we started for the most part as strangers: only two pairs of friends ever came into the group, and in each case one stayed and one left.
toturi: I think we'd better move this discussion into a different thread, lest we hijack this one completely :) |
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Aug 26 2005, 03:30 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Okay, the more I deal with this, the more it sounds like a bad 80s movie.
Okay, go back and look at the original post. Now, get this: The player who cheated did not do so without the knowledge of the GM running the game that night. In fact, he had a tape recorder in his pocket. As it turns out, the GM has had it in for him for a few months now. Why? Guess who is dating that GM's sister. Said GM has been politely asked to leave. Now, if everyone excuses me, I'll be chugging something alcoholic in hopes it wipes the taste of soap opera from my mouth. I swear, all we need is the random monster/immortal serial killer busting onto the scene to complete it. |
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Aug 26 2005, 03:39 PM
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#75
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Woah, wait. What? It may just be the pain meds, but I think I need a diagram for this one.
~J |
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