 Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened, the SR3R way |
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 Mar 7 2007, 05:41 PM
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#101
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437  |
I agree.
The Magic attribute should have no affect on spell effects. Using Force to control things will fix one of the biggest problems in the game. All spells being cast at Force 3 or 5. Especially if #2 (Dice Pool limitations absed on Force) is taken into consideration. I like the idea on Heal/Treat, but I'd have to think more on it. I disagree on Increased Reflexes (as I'm sure you'd expect alot of people would). Reflexes should, IMHO, be a max of Force/2 rounded up (so Force 5 or 6 'caps' the spell). |
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Mar 8 2007, 12:31 PM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
Is this for purposes of keeping drain TN down? If so, what about not halving force for drain but giving drain resistance a staging value of 1. Who here remembers the old ways? |
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Mar 10 2007, 09:20 AM
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#103
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I thought a bit on this (sorry for the delayed reply) and while I do think that is a better system Link, I agree with what I believe the general premise was in the current system. To keep stun and physical mechanics using the same system.
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Mar 23 2007, 05:39 AM
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#104
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Um, why? Do regular mooks typically install their own home alarm systems? Protect their personal information from fraud by themselves? Track down people who commit crimes against them? No, of course not; this is what subcontracting is for. Remember that 1% is about 1 in 100; this is the equivalent of a couple people per apartment building, or per two blocks in a housing tract. I imagine that the term "Neighborhood Watch"[ers] to suddenly become popular again.
As I said, Neighborhood Watch[ers]. I don't think we need extra rules here.
Hm. Well, if you're eliminating magic loss from deadly wounds and stun, and allowing stim patches and focus addiction rules to cause Magic Loss via Essence Loss, then the only reason geasea would exist would be to counteract cybersurgery. In that vein, maybe it should be removed. Then again, there's also my old idea of weaving it together with Aspected Magery. Also make the fulfillment of talisman, gesture, and other "easy" gaesas take a free action to use, as Bitbasher suggested in that thread. Because of that simple rule, having more than one Geas would require you waste an init pass messing with your geasea just to cast a single spell.
I perfer the "snapback" effect, but really only because that's the way it already is and it really doesn't need changing. I can see the argument though.
Agree with both, unsurprisingly.
I'm not sure about spontaneous, at least not if you're trying to protect other people. Just for yourself I think would be okay, though. Absolutely agree on the spell pool only thing.
I vote option 3 for everything, just to keep it uniform and relatively comprehendable.
Agree.
Agree with the first, though I'm unsure what the second will help with.
Um, sure, why not?
Heh. As much as I'd love to see this, it's probably as much of a non-starter as my own proud nail. Namely, the integrating Thresholds thing.
Let's not forget that, unless you're a mage, Essence doesn't mean a whole lot either, so it's not like cyberware has huge negatives. |
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Mar 23 2007, 11:28 AM
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#105
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Other than, you know, raising your TN to be healed sky-high, making you easier to spot (IIRC, sub-3-Essence people drop a point in Signature), and making it much, much harder for you to get more 'ware.
~J |
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Mar 23 2007, 12:43 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
If you take deadly stun damage while projecting, you do instantly leash back to your meatbod. Mages in my games have worn shock watches set to 4 hours 59 minutes so that if they were trapped by astral wards, stuck tunnelling through the earth, trying to hide while being chased by various spirits, or otherwise detained while astrally projecting, their watch would go off before they ran out of essense, stun them unconscious, and a few minutes later they would wake up in their body. Checking for magic loss is far better than certain death due to essence loss. |
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Mar 23 2007, 12:53 PM
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#107
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
To answer some questions...
Magical security - I don't expect the 'average mook' to have a magical security system, but an entire group of average mooks should. More importantly, the lack of mundane magical security enforces the current unbalance of power; magic trumps cyber, magic trumps magic, cyber trumps only cyber. There needs to be a non-magical something that can effectively prey upon magic OR magic should not be so powerful against mundanes (like if essence loss increased the TN for spell targeting on ALL spells, not just healing spells). |
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Mar 23 2007, 02:11 PM
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#108
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
14S rifle from 1.2 km trumps mage.
"Magic" may not be overcome by any mundane concept that doesn't create a background count, but mages can be easily removed from the threat list by anyone with the right skills and some semblance of opportunity. |
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Mar 23 2007, 02:28 PM
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#109
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
14S from 1.2km is somewhat more than "some semblance of opportunity".
~J |
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Mar 23 2007, 02:33 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I have to agree with Eyeless here. I think magic should be needed to counter magic. You don't have sammies beating information out of a computer system, why should magic be any different.
I agree here with the original poster. No reason why a mundane with a sorcery skill could not create a ward, just like they can talismonge. Astral forms should be able to pick up emotional emanations based on the conversation if the person is not masking. I disagree with 5. Depending on how much living material and how many people are in a building it should be easy. I think personally, that there should be a TN modifier kind of based on a cover modifier. no life in a building .... you stand out like a bonfire in the night. If there is alot of life, (other people and plants) then you can hide much better, as there is more to sift through)
1. So what is the point of initiation? just taking metamagics? then why not change them to a skill? I think over all I like second edition magic rules much better. I know that learning spells are a pain for each of the different damage levels, and you get metamagics on first initiation, but if you tweak those, you have a better base to start from. (Essence is the level which the spirit is in harmony with the body.) Geasa should be a penalty, like in second edition. If you lose two points of magic, you will have to learn cast differently, to channel power. (you can shed a geasa upon initiation) Geasa in third edition was a munchkins way of getting out of augmentation penalties. Focus addiction rules are stupid. you know what the penalty is for foci? Grounding or having the possibility of losing your foci. being really weak when they are taken away. those are great penalties so often overlooked.
That is just cool. I am continuing in another post so it doesn't get too long. |
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Mar 23 2007, 03:00 PM
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#111
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Indeed, it is a trump. However a shotgun at 37 meters is usually enough to outrange a Detect Enemies. |
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Mar 23 2007, 03:14 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
From that aspected magery thread:
Sorry, I have to:
"I can turn invisible, but only when no one's around!" |
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Mar 23 2007, 04:18 PM
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#113
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
But it is different. A decker can't use hacking to directly attack a street sam either. The two really can't directly influence each other, there's little cross-over. A rigger can directly attack a street sam, but a rigged vehicle is still vulnerable to the street sam's weapons (APDS, rocket launchers, etc.) There is cross-over, but the two are at least able to counter each other. A mage can attack a sam while being invulnerable to counter attack (through spirits, invisibility, extreme range, etc.) There is one-sided cross-over. That seems unbalanced to me. That said:
This is the sort of counter I was talking about. A street sam who can erect wards can create at least the most basic defenses against magical attack.
No, it really doesn't. A rifle at that range, even accepting the ridiculous "scope reduces range to 0 rule" is still looking at significant modifiers; cover, light, fog and so on. Meanwhile, a mage suffers ZERO range penalties, zero light penalties, limited fog and cover penalties. While your 14S rifle isn't even available at chargen, his 6D manabolt spell most certainly is (and can't be dodged by you and can't be resisted with armor). But that's giving the sam the benefit. Lets put them on more even keel. The mage is invisible, knows how to use cover, has his own 14S rifle, and has an elemental on call. Now what does your sam do? At 1.2 km, he's out of range of ultrasound. You can't see him. You can't hear him, but he can spot YOU with a perception check, or by using watchers. He can also sit back and send his spirit to attack you, in which case your charisma 3 street sam is basically nuked (since immunity to weapons will negate most things your character will have available). That is not what I would consider balanced. |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:04 PM
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#114
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ask the rigger to kill it. But like I said in my response earlier. 37m is all you usually need to get surprise on a paranoid mage (who will either have spent significant resources on a force 6 sustaining focus for Detect Enemies, or is at a 1 or 2 point sustaining penalty) and that's short range for an assault rifle, so the cybered surprise can roll his many reaction dice vs. a 2, while the mage rolls a few reaction dice vs. a 4 and then proceeds to get shredded. Now, you can easily counter this by mentioning the mages friend the MBW enhanced troll with enough armor to ignore a railgun. That imediately gets to the point that while magic can do many things, you shouldn't look at SR as a deathmatch between archetypes. Grenades out-kill spells consistently at starting forces and conditionally at higher forces. There is no smartlink for manabolt. FAB3 and background counts will do absolutely nothing to the MBW troll with the custom FA shotgun. Yes magic needed more vulnerabilities than were in the main SR3 book, that's why more were added in MitS. As for wards, in favor of them being more common and limited more by litigation than lack of ability. I could easily see a law that wards may not restrict access for the astrally handicapped (dual nature SURGE flaw) beyond the physical impediments. Locked door, ward allowed. Unlocked door, no ward. This would also allow the legal parallel between alarm wards and security cameras. |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:11 PM
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#115
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
37km is definitely not short range for an assault rifle. Nor is 361m, which is what you need to escape an extended-range Detect Enemies spell at that force.
~J |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:20 PM
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#116
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
SR3 GM screen, ranges, assault rifle, short: 0-50. Sport rifle is 0-100 and sniper is 0-150. It is long for the shotgun I incorrectly cited in a previous post, and medium for the SMG I thought about using in the argument. I also noticed that the 1.2km I used earlier would have to be a custom extended barrel sniper rifle, so even less useful in the argument. |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:23 PM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Ultrasound, tactical computer, supression fire, a couple of grenades. Shadowrun is a game of rock,paper,scissors where everyone has their own areas of expertise. It's more about preparation and tactics than just raw archtype abilities. Detect enemies doesn't work against a well planted bomb. |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:25 PM
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#118
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Check your units. ~J |
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Mar 23 2007, 05:27 PM
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#119
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ah, thank you. Typo corrected. Also, Platinum wrote a far superior counter than my rambling mess, lets use that one to continue the debate. |
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Mar 24 2007, 02:37 AM
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#120
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
A decker can also hack Lone Star and get the mage framed for a quadruple homicide. What's your point?
Er, but ward-making doesn't use Sorcery skill; it uses Magic rating. That's why every mook with a Magic rating can make one, even if they can't do any other magic at all. Or do you propose changing that? |
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Mar 24 2007, 03:05 AM
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#121
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I would be fine with changing the mechanic to use sorcery to erect a ward, but it would take hours to construct, much like a hermetic circle, (and cost a pretty penny) an instant ward would be out of the question.
You are not thinking like a criminal. A decker can trap a sammie in an elevator, can enable a building's defenses, leak footage of the sammie ... ruin his rep ... reprogram his simsense ring for psychotropic BTL... the possiblities are staggering. Sure a mage can send a spirit after a sammie ... but a sammie doesn't always travel alone. Spirits that attack someone get investigated by paranormal cops. Just because you can be invisible and send a spirit after someone doesn't mean they are defenseless. Everything depends on anonymity, and planning things out properly. Ultrasound trumps your invisibility. If you know who is after you and investigate their habits, you can always find a way to catch them unaware. If you know they have a sustaining focus and detect enemies... wait till just before they have to reactivate it. Someone that has detect enemies always active gets a massive amount of false positives. after a while they just want to sleep undisturbed, and drop it. Magic is not the end all be all. |
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Mar 24 2007, 05:43 AM
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#122
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
...though it can be through initiation. Maybe we should consider optional rules to--how did nezumi put it--"require eating puppies or something," to initiate. I heard things about how magic in SR2 involved forcing your mind to become insane for a brief period. Did that ever have mechanical consequences that we can exploit here?
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Mar 24 2007, 06:54 AM
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#123
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Dude. Any sammie can beat a Force 12 spirit to death with a fishing pole much more easily than he can send a volkswagon to the great highway in the sky with his predator. .
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Mar 24 2007, 02:20 PM
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#124
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Again, I have no question that any character type, decker, rigger, sam or mage, can whip any other character type when the first character type has the advantage of knowing his target and having the time to plan a real ambush.
My problem is that in a one-on-one mash-up, when no one has significant advantage over the other so you don't have time to spend weeks planning an ambush or what-have you, the mage has a clear and significant advantage in combat over every character type except the (drone) rigger (remember a spirit can manifest in the cockpit of a normal vehicle rigger. Actually, now that I think about it, even a drone rigger is in trouble since it takes so little time for a watcher pack to find him where ever he's hiding.) The end result in our 'paper-rock-scissors' is, generally speaking, rigger and mage trump each other and everything else, sam and adept trump each other and anything below them, and the decker is a wild card. If we reduce how silly vehicle damage works out, either negating all damage or taking serious damage, it becomes a little more balanced in that a sam/adept can trump a rigger and a rigger has a slight advantage over a mage, while the mage can generally beat the sam/adept. I'm of the opinion that mages and sams can be brought in-line by: -Allowing for the mundane creation of wards -Reworking spirits "immunity to normal weapons", since apparently a fishing pole is not a normal weapon, but against guns, again we have an all or nothing situation. -Reducing how insanely easy it is for spirits (especially watchers) to find anyone almost any circumstances, or at least how there's largely no defense against this for mundanes (I cannot imagine that after forty years of magical surveillance threats the corporations haven't found a more convenient, cost effective method than huge wards). -Better defined rules on using astral camouflage I would also be interested, but doubt it will be as popular in enacting rules for: -Detecting astral activity - in theory this stuff already exists today, as paranormal hunters watch magnetic and IR radiation levels for signs of invisible spirits. This would not tell you who is there, what they're doing or any details like that, just when you have company and when you don't, and it can be defeated (most easily due to its extremely short range) -A way of neutralizing astral activity in the area, perhaps by being able to temporarily create a background count, being able to easily "buy" spirit services, etc. |
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Mar 24 2007, 05:20 PM
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#125
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, then, what's the problem? Are you saying the solution is to fix vehicle damage?
Still not liking this one. I don't like the idea of a mundane having such a powerful tool to use against mages. And, frankly, a ward is a powerful tool for a mundane, even more powerful than for a mage because there is absolutely nothing for him to lose in warding everything and everywhere.
Emphatically YES! Just like vehicle damage, Immunity needs a rewrite. At the same time, we should probably look at that Contest of Wills thing; I really doubt that it was intended for Reach melee weapon mods to be so incredibly important in dealing with spirits.
Well, according to the MitS rules, creating a low background count (1-2) is as easy as: A) Murdering a few people (death pollutes the astral rather quickly, but temporarily unless we're talking Auschwitz.) B) Holding a rave (intense emotions work too, but must be sustained for awhile. Note this leads to Johnsons meeting runners at bar/club areas, to help mask them from astral detection.) or C) Working out of a drab, Dilbert-like office building, homeless shelter, or whorehouse (apparently sustained feelings of hopelessness and despair also cause background count.) Getting higher than 2 is a bit tougher, granted; you'll probably have to either FAB somewhere for an extended period or set up a torture chamber. |
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