Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened, the SR3R way Options

[nezumi]

I would reduce the base TN for spotting spirits from 12 to 10, since a force 6 spirit is basically the largest an exceptional human can safely conjure, yet it would still almost never be noticed by most people. Force 3, being the maximum legal limit, will still only rarely be sensed.

The TN for spotting magic needs to be printed more prominently, and there needs to be a way to specify when a spell is completely discrete. For instance, is mind probe a discrete spell or "brain rape"? If it's like a machine gun going off, well obviously not discrete, but many, many players currently believe it is a quiet and subtle way of operating.

[Kagetenshi]

It's already clear. Any spell with a duration of Instant is discrete, while Sustained spells are continuous. Pemanent spells might need to be clarified there.

~J

[Crossfire]

Would having an astrally projecting mage AUTOMATICALLY manifest itself be a nice way to balance astral scouting? It wouldn't be an option, just a part of the ability. They would be easier to spot, even if you would still need something in the astral to affect it (or something dual-natured or astrally perceiving...).

Thoughts?

Peace!

Crossfire

[Kagetenshi]

That's a bigger change than I can evaluate while procrastinating my disco homework. I'll get back to you on that one.

~J

[Kyoto Kid]

...making spirits easier to spot for mundanes does not address the fact the the searching spirit can still zip back to its summoner after the target was located. Certainly the target could do nothing to prevent the spirit from returning to it's summoner either unless he or she could astrally project or was packing an FN AAL Gyrojet with Plus rounds at the minimum (if the spirit manifested).

[Eyeless Blond]

What it means is that the mundane can call Lone Star and file a police report, or call Bob his buddy the mage, etc. More than that, though, being aware of the spy limits the usefulness of the information the spy can gather. Though G.I. Joe made it a cliche, it's still true that "Knowing is half the battle." But yes, the other half is to update the Contest of Wills to make more sense, both to give normal mundanes a chance and to eliminate the silliness of using fishing poles to fight intangible spirits.

And I agree with Nezumi's notion to reduce the TN to 10-Force, maybe even 9-Force.

[Kyoto Kid]

...yes, the mundane can report he was spied upon by a spirit, but what info does that really give the Star?

"yeah, so you saw a spirit, do you have someone you know of who we can link it to...?"

Granted, in nations like the UK where there are actual laws against Astral intrusion such an incident would be taken more seriously (particularly since all mages there are required to register with the LPO)

I feel the power itself needs to be nerfed just a bit so it isn't always so bloody foolproof, particularly in the case of Watchers.

Even reducing the TN by force in this instance still makes low force entities more powerful since they remain harder to detect. For example, using a base TN of 10 - force, a force 6 elemental could be noticed on a Perception test TN of 4, but a piddly force 2 watcher still requires a TN of 8. More often than not mages will send watchers on search missions rather than risk an exspensive and hard to summon elemental.

[fistandantilus4....]

This thread, and the other SR3R threads are being moved over to Community Projects. The original Shadowrun 3rd Revised thread will remain in the Shadowrun forum. They're getting quite a lot of traffic and are sticking to the top of the Shadowrun forum, but would be more appropriately placed in Community Projects.

[Eyeless Blond]

[nezumi]

If watchers lose interest quickly, then the rules should reflect that. Have it roll its force against a TN of 4. No successes? It wanders off to do something else, never to report to the caster again. Meanwhile, Astral searches should be impacted by things like range and astral activity. A character 100 miles away in a packed subway train should be basically impossible to find, while a person a block away in an empty room should be relatively easy.

I like both of the suggested rules at the end of the post, though.

[Eyeless Blond]

Well they kinda don't. According to the rules they're extremely loyal and single-minded in their tasks, to the point that they take orders extremely literally.

To be honest, I've never had a problem with watcher spirits; just keep in mind that they have an Int equal to their Force, can't reliably overhear anything done on a technological level, and don't have any relevant background knowledge in any subject, seeing as they are basically raw astral goop formed into a temporarily self-sustaining process. The best way to weaken them is specify that they have to make the same Memory Tests everyone else has to in order to remember long or complicated conversations.

A watcher patrol is actually a decent way to keep a wide area under astral guard for very little cost. A group of 3 watchers--one at Force 3 to give it a decent Int score, maybe summoned using ritual materials or karma for longevity, the other two Force 1--can spot any astral form in a 10,000 square meters, covering a small suburban neighborhood (100m x 100m). IMO this is actually a bit low; I think the patrol areas should be 10 times as large, but then I also think watchers should be cheaper to summon for long periods (maybe 50Y/month OR 1 Karma for a year. I mean, real spirits are bound to tasks for a year and a day for less karma than a watcher is for a few months; that's silly.)

And yes, distance should have an affect on a watcher's Search ability, just as it does on the regular spirit's a few pages back. In fact I'd suggest making it the same penalty, or maybe just give the watcher the Search power, but with a base time of 2 hours instead of 20 minutes and limit to living targets only.

[nezumi]

Watchers for defensive purposes I really don't have a problem with. But, like dogs, you shouldn't be able to say "find Bob, his signature looks like this", and the watcher will actually find Bob. At minimum, such a thing should require the caster be able to show Bob's astral signature to the watcher (like giving a piece of clothing to a dog), which makes it a good deal more difficult to find missing persons.

[Eyeless Blond]

(Edit: doh! I mixed up the Search test rules. Need to rethink this...)

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Eyeless Blond]

That would work, but why bother making a second spirit type? Just let watchers be summoned long-term for cheap, say 15Y in components for a week or 1 Karma for a year and a day, but specify that long-term summons can only be used to bind the watcher to an area to guard.

Regarding Search, I really like the idea that the summoner's Int has something to do with finding a target. I'm not sure how good any of the current Search rules are, though; the watcher one is especially odd because of the lack of distance restriction.

[nezumi]

SR4 seems to have some reasonable astral search rules, which may be worth bringing in.

I don't mind rules on making watchers that can hang around longer as guards, sort of like the binding rules in SR4, but I'd stay away from trying to classify different types of watchers with different sets of rules.

[Kagetenshi]

I'm not too keen on Watchers hanging around very long-term—I think the fact that trying to do so costs as much or more than summoning a real Elemental (depending on how you value karma; it could cost less for some characters, maybe) and still only gets you a few weeks is wholly appropriate.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

Binding a Force 4 elemental for a year and a day: 4 Karma, plus the 4,000Y in summoning ingredients to get your elemental in the first place.

Binding a decidedly inferior Force 3 Watcher for the same amount of time: either 52 Karma, 52,000 Y, or some combination thereof. Also you have to repeat the ritual every few weeks

So, I suppose if you value Karma at more than 12,000 Y per point the above trade may be worthwhile, though you get a less powerful, less intelligent, astral-only spirit for the bargain. Or if your mage gets a Magic attribute of over about 20, at which point he can summon Force 10 watchers, lowering that ratio to 4,200 Y per point of Karma spent for an equal-Force elemental. Either way it is trivial to see that unless you plan on summoning Force 53+ watchers (magic attribute over 106) you'll never get a good return using karma to bind a watcher spirit as opposed to an equal-Force elemental.

So, um, how exactly is that "appropriate"?

(Edit): No, in fact the rules already show how other spirit types can be put into service as guards far more efficiently than it would cost to summon them for your own use. Watchers should be no different, and in fact it would massively help alleviate the problem of needing mages around to combat mages if there were watcher guards around most of the mid- to high-security areas in Seattle. Make astral guards as common as background count and you'll see far fewer astral peeping Toms, all without having to explicitly give mundanes magic-fighting ghostbuster power packs or whatever.

[Kagetenshi]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Kagetenshi]

I figured its primary job was to lust after human women.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

Heh, now I have this weird idea of incubi and succubi as Toxic versions of spirits of Man, spawned from prostitution houses and rape scenes. It's the fault of my own twisted underslept brain, but I'm blaming you for it anyway. :)

[nezumi]

I agree, the high/low essence benefits and drawbacks thing rocks.

[Kyoto Kid]

...on the Watcher search topic.

Had this nearly end a mission right out of the box because the original rules on distance were kind of vague. The team was in one city where an abduction occurred, and the target was by then in another neighbouring country. The players of the mage characters swore up and down that it was infallible even in spite of the distance involved. Had to go tho the FAQ for a ruling on this but was pretty much advised that if I felt it too powerful to throw up things like wards or random wandering sprits to confuse or take out the watcher, or to houserule it.

Distance should definitely be a factor. So should basic knowledge of the location being searched (they had an idea of city the person was in but none of the runners actually ever were there) maybe come into play? In Champions there is a similar power that has negative modifiers for population size of the location. If all the character knew was they were in a city of say 500,000, he basically needed one hell of a good roll to even have a remote chance at locating the subject. Even then, I believe you only got the general area (neighbourhood, suburb), not the exact pinpoint location.

I also would say actually having prior personal contact with the target should also be a big part of it, not just having a holo picture like the team above had to show the watcher.

I like the idea of some kind of mechanic for Watchers to be distracted along the way. I do not like the idea of the summoner's INT playing into the equation. Requiring the mage to have a "clear picture" of the target's astral signature and needing to convey it to the Watcher (have the Watcher make an INT test to catch all the details) so it understands could be another way to to increase the degree of difficulty.

[nezumi]

Something that needs to be re-enforced (and should exist in the current rules, even though it's not specified), watchers are astral-only. They can manifest, but not materialize. They cannot see photographs, read maps, see color, etc. So having a holo won't help. The mage needs a way to describe the fellow (or the target) to the watcher. Additionally, it needs a way to describe the location. The latter step can be very difficult. Sure, if he's in Seattle you just say 'search the city'. But if the target is in Philly? Southeast DC? How do you express that to a creature with no sense of geography, no way to read a map, and few astral markers?

Strictly speaking, I think astral searching should be difficult by the rules as they stand, but because we don't have any rules for how to communicate an astral signature to a watcher, we sort of have to muddle through. How do you tell the watcher to find Bob? Well, there's nothing in the rules, so let's assume it's trivial. If we make it clear how difficult it is to explain real world concepts to an astral only creature, that alone will greatly reduce the watcher problem.