Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened, the SR3R way Options

[Eyeless Blond]

I'm still not so sure myself, not so much for flavor reasons, but for playability reasons. It's bad enough that we've got the decker off to one side playing his own game, a game different enough that a great many GMs insist on the decker being an NPC so they don't have to worry about sculpted hosts and grid metaphors, but now we want to do a similar thing for the mage on astral overwatch? Seems to me that's going in the wrong direction.

Besides, all that stuff about Kabbalah, Native American Shamanism, dream quests, etc. really applies more to the entirely subjective reality of metaplanar quests. Metaplanar quests are typified by highly personal, highly subjective planes, and are already fairly dangerous (though maybe they should be more so?), which meshes well with the powerful and personal vision quests typified in Shamanism and such traditions. "Regular" Astral travel more resembles an out-of-body experience than a vision quest; you're spending your time as a bodyless ghost, floating over the physical world on a different, yet corresponding plane.

I think making the astral plane too different and alien is the wrong way to go, but it may be hard to actually prove one way or the other unless we ran competing games, one with the "alien ecosystem" idea for astral travel and one with the "foggy one-way mirror" idea that I'm recommending above.

[Kagetenshi]

I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed, but that might be going a little too far.

~J

[Crossfire]

[nezumi]

While I like the idea, I worry it may be too much of a paradigm shift for what we're doing. It would substantially change the flavor and balance, and would require pretty hefty testing as well.

[Eyeless Blond]

Anyone have any new thoughts on the Astral thing? I still believe that the alien ecosystem is the wrong way to go with balancing the astral. I think it'll solve one problem and create a worse one. Having the mage's astrally projecting body get pinned down by a swarm of astral bees or whatever is in many ways the same as the decker having to deal with a sculpted system while the rest of the team is on a run; he's off in his own little world, dealing with his own little problems, while everyone else including the GM is trying not to get distracted from the actual run. My big fear is that the mage's astral work will go the way of the decker's Matrix work: something that slows down the games where it is present and completely outlawed in many others.


On another note, I had an idea to help re-include Grounding. I don't know how Grounding worked in SR2, but how about this: in SR3R spells can be Grounded through a link between the physical and astral realm, but only in the opposite direction of the link itself. (Why? Just call it a weird rule of magic) For example:

• In the case of an active focus, the physical focus in creating an astral form, so the link goes from the focus to the astral plane. Thus a mage can Ground a spell from the astral form of the focus into the physical focus, but not the other way around (from the physical focus into the astral realm).
• In the case of a Materializing spirit, the spirit is making a semi-physical body, creating a link going from the astral plane to the physical. Since the link goes from the astral to the physical you can't use it to Ground a spell into the physical world, but if a physical mage wanted to he could Ground a mana area-effect spell through the spirit's physical body and smack down the astral area around him, all without having to Perceive and expose himself to direct danger from the astral.
• One fun idea here is that this rule allows a particularly creative perceiving mage to Ground a Fireball through a projecting mage's astral body and blow up the house his physical body is in. :)

This is also why ritual magic takes so much longer than casting a spell (or Grounding one out, if I'm not entirely mistaken). A ritual spell itself isn't all that much different from a Grounded spell; the difference is that the ritual team must induce a link to grow form from the target back to the ritual team (the "Sending" part of the ritual) before the spell can be cast.

[Link]

[nezumi]

I like both of those grounding rules! Blond's version is a bit more complex, Link's version is a little less interesting (since you can only cast say a 1D fireball through a rating 1 sustaining focus, although that's still a threat, no question). Presumably, a mage counts as force 12 ;)

[Eyeless Blond]

On that note, anyone care to fill me in on how grounding worked? All I know is it had something to do with using a dual-being or object to cast spells from one plane to the other.

[Link]

The mechanics varied slightly through the editions but the general idea is that any astral mage or spirit could cast spells/powers on the astral plane that when aimed at a dual natured target would ground into the physical plane. The chief benefit was that area spells would affect physical targets in the area of effect.

[nezumi]

Like Link said. It basically made you a lot more cautious to stand around the mage, since he was liable to explode at any moment. In general, foci and astrally perceiving became a lot more dangerous, since they served as channels for grounding (it would really decrease how reliable that sustaining foci is!) The problem was mages would summon a force 1 spirit, send it into a room full of bad guys, tell it to materialize, then cast fireball on the spirit, killing it but hurting everyone else in the room.

[Eyeless Blond]

That's it? Cast physical spell from astral -> spell affects physical plane? Huh, and here I thought there would be some extra rules like having to synchronize an aura, or having to defeat the focus/spirit in astral combat first or something.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Link]

[Kagetenshi]

So the idea of essentially removing astral projection is looking more attractive. I'll try to outline the reasons why it might be a good thing in the next few days, but in the meantime, does anyone have any comments for or against the idea?

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

So, what's the tally for proposals on this thread? So far I have the following:

A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2)When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.
-3) Astral plane changes
--a) Add a new set of astral-only critters, to make the astral plane more like an alien ecosystem.
--b) Nonliving matter cannot be seen from the astral unless the mage is manifesting.
--c) Changes to Search and Patrol functions available to spirits--see D:Spirit Changes.
--d) "I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed" --don't know what this means.
--e) Metaplanar travel is harder/requires more preparation.
--f) Interaction between astral and physical--see E:Grounding Revisited.
--g) Impede ability to exactly gauge distances and positions for non-living things
--h) No sound penetration from astral<->physical unless manifest.
--i) Mundanes can sense unmanifested spirits more easily, and at range. (See D-6)

B) Essence is an attribute of the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself.
-1) Cyberpsychosis; low-Essence characters' social/healing problems caused by low connection between astral body/physical body, not just presence of chrome as described in books.
--a) Body kept at low Essence while projecting; too much projection may cause same effects as cyberpsychosis?
-2) Low connection to body == difficult to affect w/ wpells.
--a) Add TN of Essence Loss (or Essence Loss / 2) to all spellcasting TNs/spirit power TNs, other than indirect combat spells etc.

C) Spell/Sorcery Changes
-1) Direct/Indirect Detection Spells
--a) Indirect Detection spells not resisted, or resisted only by person using the sense rather than targets, much like indirect illusion spells.
--b) Detect X/Combat Sense *are* resisted, while things like Nightvision/Clairvoyance are not.
--c) No such thing as "Improved Area" for Spell Creation; if you want to improve your area, increase Force (see 2)
--d) No change to totem mods/etc; Detection still treated like one "school"
-2) Force of spells == area, not Magic Attribute
-3) Limit spellcasting successes to Force
--a) Net successes only?
--b) Total successes?
-4) Spell Defense comes from Spell Pool only?
--a) No Spell Defense specialization for Sorcery
-5) Magic more subtle? Less subtle?
-6) Spell ranges? Casting spells further away == penalties to cast.
--a) Grimoire had penalties for extreme ranges due to visibility.
150 m or less: no penalty
151-300m: +2
301-600m: +4
601-1250m: +6
1251-2500m: +8
2501-5000m: +10
5001m: no valid target
-7) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
-8 ) Manipulation as a category is too broad
--a Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
--b Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
-9) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
--a) Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
--b) For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
--c) Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
-10) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)

D) Spirit changes
-1) Watchers suck/use different rules than normal spirits
--a) Watchers use same Search rules as other spirits (see 2), but have additional penalties for finding non-astral targets.
--b) Allow cheap "Bind as guard" option, as elementals have, to replace expensive and useless long-term summon option. Watchers can only guard astral space.
--c) Watchers must make a test to stay interested in mundane affair, even under orders.
-2) Search is odd
--a) Wider area == higher TN
--b) Communicating what to search for is nontrivial
--c) Dependent on communication between spirit and summoner (summoner's Int? Spirit's Int? Some sort of description skill?).
--d) Dependent on summoner's knowledge of the target.
--e) Should be the same rules for Watchers and other spirits? Similar but with special restrictions for the Watchers? Maybe non-Watcher spirits can search for physical objects more easily than Watchers?
--f) Adapt SR4's Search rules?
-3) Astral Patrols
--a) Base area changed to 10x sizes given in MitS.
-4) Immunity to Normal Weapons needs changing
--a) Changes should be made to hardened armor as well.
--b) Provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets.
-5) Contest of Wills needs changing
--a) Eliminate reach bonuses (Fishing Pole of Elemental-squishing +2!), and replace with something more sensible.
--b) What would you say about mundanes and Manifesting mages being able to have a Contest of Wills?
-6) Make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings
--a) TN of 12 (9 maybe?) minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute to detect within (Essence) meters.
--b) TN of 12 - the perceiving character's Essence - the spirit's Force/Magic
--c) How to make Geasea+Conjuring work?
-7) Ally spirits
--a) Should not cost more (or at least much more) to upgrade than create.
--b) Stats should not be independent of Force, even after creation.

E) Grounding Revisited
-1) Max Force of spell == max Force of astral-physical link.
-2) Spells only travel in opposite direction to link (eg. Perceiving mage can only ground astral-cast spell to physical plane; materializing spirit can only ground physical-cast spell to the astral plane).
-3) Simplify Grounding rules to be more like Masking through a ward (synch aura, etc)
-4) Grounding as Metamagic technique?

F) Revamping geasea
-1) Gesture/Talisman/Incantation Geasea require a Free Action during your turn devoted to each geas before using any magical skill. This means someone with more than one of the three will be forced to waste a pass chanting or waving their hands around before casting a spell, for instance.
-2) Maybe we can cross-pollinate the aspected abilities of Aspected Mages, and the limitations of the different Geasea? I imagine a guy taking a Sorcery-only Geas after losing a lot of Essence to a single cybersurgery, for instance, or an Aspected Mage who can only use his magic at night, rather than the limited range of canon limitations for aspected mages.
-3) Geasea apply to specific spells/spirits
--a) No more Magic Loss from Deadly wounds
--b) Would work like fetish/exclusive limitations on spells.
-4) Scrap Geasea altogether

G) Ritual Tracking should be doable by one person.

H) Magic EATING PUPPIES
-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
-2) Spells eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
-3) Spirits eating puppies: summoning spirits requires stealing life force from surrounding life. Temporary Essence Drain-like effect on everyone nearby (especially the mage); resistance is harder/permenant as Force increases?
-4) Wards/enchanting eating puppies: ward creation/item creation requires bloodletting?
-5) Condition Geas: Must club baby seal before casting spell. :)

I) Foci
-1) Make Addiction stick to people more? Remove it entirely?
-2) Remove combat with foci/astral objects

J) Ward-making
-1) Mundanes can learn, like Talismongering?
-2) Vehicle warding, the definitive answer.
-3) Use SR4's idea, of a ward being a barrier projecting from an object.
--a) If warded object moves, but walls move with it (ie. warded vehicle; object in vehicle), ward stays intact.
--b) If warded object moves relative to barrier walls then ward is destroyed.
-4) Wards contacting other wards; do they fight?
-5) Wards inside other wards. Can it be done?

J) Initiation
-1) Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
--a) Magic Rating boosted like other attributes; "racial" max == Essence+Initiation Grade.
--b) Essence Loss acts as a penalty, so raising Magic costs more for less benefit with cyber.
-2) To join an initiation group, candidate rolls Magic or highest magic skill vs. TN 4 + (size of group/10) + 1 per pt of magic lost - 1 per initiate grade. Group may spend karma pool on behalf of candidate.
--a) Alternatively - divide size of group by 5
--b) Alternatively - increases based on the highest grade within the group
--c) Alternatively - allow for EITHER above and first idea based on style of group(cult of personality vs. communal paradise)
--d) Alternative 6 which lost me (TN based on Group Size Factor, based on highest Initiate Grade/2 + grades of highest graded individuals/2)
--e) Alternatively, Mag. Theory or Etiquette(Magic) roll vs TN of 4 + members of group/5, +2 for not being initiated
-3) You cannot get more initiate grades than your original magic rating (natural max of 12, 10 with 1 point of cyber, etc.)
-4) Add metamagic to allow a caster to sustain a spell with spell pool



*Pant, pant, pant* Whew, that was a lot more than I expected!

[nezumi]

Boy, I'm glad I'm not maintaining THAT list ;P

Astral projection is pretty cool, and very popular. I do enjoy that astral projection is another one of those 'games' or mechanics people can and generally enjoy exploring. Plus, after four editions, it really is a stable of the game. Take it away and there's a serious risk people will say 'SR3R? That's not Shadowrun! There's no astral projection!' I don't know if we'd want to alienate such a large portion of our audience over what, ultimately, shouldn't be that tough an issue to fix. There are plenty of other suggestions made that would help limit projection without banning it outright.

[Eyeless Blond]

I filed that under A-3. The fix(es) I particularly like are A3-b, c, e, f, g, h, and i. I don't particularly like -a, because it makes astral too much of a separatist's game. When the GM and the mage are dealing with astral-only critters that noone else can see or interact with, what is everyone else doing? Sitting on their hands, getting bored, wondering why they bothered with the projecting mage in the first place, the same way they wonder why they bothered with the decker but even less so because a projecting mage can do even less than the Overwatch decker.

But enough about my likes and dislikes; anyone else have any comments? See anything I missed?

[nezumi]

Lessee...

A-1 b and c OR 2 a and b. We just need to settle on a paradigm
3 I still like a, but I can understand why people don't want to use it. c, d, e, f, g, h, i (whew)

B I like everything suggested.

C I like all of 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 10. I have no opinion on 4, 5, and I like 9c.

D I like all of 1 and 2. 3... I don't know that astral patrols need to be made STONGER. If anything, I'd go the other way. 4 is an issue, I have no idea how well 4b would work. It needs testing, but I don't like the absolute immunity to bullets. 5 is good. 6b I agree with. 7 I have no opinion on.

E 1 I'm not sure on, since currently people like their force 1 sustaining focus for increas reflexes +3. If fix that problem, sure. 2 I think is the best available solution. 3 and 4 I'm not huge on.

F I don't have an educated opinion on.

G I agree with.

H Hahaha! All beautiful, all of them...

I No opinion

J 1 yes, I'm not big on warding vehicles, but I can be convinced otherwise. 5 yes.

J) Initiation should be K. I'll comment on it later.

[Eyeless Blond]

Hey, that reminds me; we need to add the following:

C-11) Increase Reflexes--replace Increase Reaction, and Reflexes I, II, III
--a) Changed to +1d6INI per successes
--b) Changed to +1 Reaction/two successes, plus +1d6INI per three successes.
--c) Change TN:Reaction, Drain:+1(D)
--d) combine with Force == max successes rule. See C-3.

[Demon_Bob]

Vision penalties for range work for me. Don't forget to add in cover and concealment for ranged spells as well. It should be harder to target someone in a crowd. You should only be able to target into a crowd with an area spell that you can see.

As far as monsters in astral goes I see it as such. The astral plane in some way also shadows that of the world, so animals and others would have an echo there. How long that that echo remains depends on a number of factors. However, these Astral echos still feel the need to act in the way that their counterparts do, and to survive they must eat. As such predators exist.

With intent the mage can manipulate the energy from the astral plane to create effects (spells), and astral creations (wards). Unfortunately, this ability is not completely controlled and as such, the subconsious may form creations of its own (monsters from the Id).

The nature of the astral form will continue to be hotly debated for as long as magic exists.

The mind creates the astral form using some of the body's energy which is also used in running cyberware. In creating a form to house the mind it draws energy from the astral. A conduit to the Astral is formed which can be can be detected by other Astral beings. Intent and effects can also be sent down this conduit. Spells and creations (of which the Astral Projection would be one) both drain the body's energy and can only be maintained for a determinable amount of time. The Mind has the ability to override the body's self preservation instinct, allowing it to travel far from the body, however, without those instincts it becomes harder to find its way back. Because the body is powering the Astral projection damage would be shared or felt between the two.

Or

The Astral Form resides within the body. The body ties it to this plane of existence, and gives the Astral form a safe harbor. As the body is replaced with cyberware part of which identifies the self is lost, the Astral form grows weaker, therefore essence resides in the astral form. Longer it is gone from the body the weaker its connection to this plane becomes, the silver cord becomes thinner then eventually breaks. Eventually, the Astral form must return to a metaplane. The astral bodies strength, measured in essence also helps to determine how long it can avoid the Astral predators before returning to its brier patch, it calls a body.

How does that sound?

[Demon_Bob]

Part 2

Mundanes can create wards, but not so in such the way that the Awakened do.
They give energy and life to thier structures over time, by identifing themselves with such, the more of thier lives that is tied to the structure the stronger the ward.

As such a close net family would create a ward around thier home. A large sterile workplace even with many people would have an insignificant ward if one at all. A small Mom & Pop style buisness would have a noticeable ward, as much of the employees lifes would be tied into it.

[Eyeless Blond]

So, to summarize:

For cover/concealment:
C-6) Spell ranges
--c) Cover+Concealment applies to spells

For the two ideas of Essence... we're bringing that up again? I thought we agreed to arbitrarily call Essence an attribute of the astral body? Oh well:
B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?

And for ward-making:
J-6) Spontaneous appearance of wards around areas...
--a) ...w/ strong sense of community, togetherness. Eg. close-knit family homes, mom-and-pop stores, churches.
--b) ...w/ strong sense of suspicion, distrust of outsiders. Eg. cult meeting houses, racist homes, gang territories.

Updates made to list. For reference, the list looks like:

[ Spoiler ]

A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2) When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.
-3) Astral plane changes
--a) Add a new set of astral-only critters, to make the astral plane more like an alien ecosystem.
--b) Nonliving matter cannot be seen from the astral unless the mage is manifesting.
--c) Changes to Search and Patrol functions available to spirits--see D:Spirit Changes.
--d) "I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed" --don't know what this means.
--e) Metaplanar travel is harder/requires more preparation.
--f) Interaction between astral and physical--see E:Grounding Revisited.
--g) Impede ability to exactly gauge distances and positions for non-living things
--h) No sound penetration from astral<->physical unless manifest.
--i) Mundanes can sense unmanifested spirits more easily, and at range. (See D-6)

B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?
-3) Cyberpsychosis; low-Essence characters' social/healing problems caused by low connection between astral body/physical body, not just presence of chrome as described in books.
--a) Body kept at low Essence while projecting; too much projection may cause same effects as cyberpsychosis?
-4) Low connection to body == difficult to affect w/ wpells.
--a) Add TN of Essence Loss (or Essence Loss / 2) to all spellcasting TNs/spirit power TNs, other than indirect combat spells etc.

C) Spell/Sorcery Changes
-1) Direct/Indirect Detection Spells
--a) Indirect Detection spells not resisted, or resisted only by person using the sense rather than targets, much like indirect illusion spells.
--b) Detect X/Combat Sense *are* resisted, while things like Nightvision/Clairvoyance are not.
--c) No such thing as "Improved Area" for Spell Creation; if you want to improve your area, increase Force (see 2)
--d) No change to totem mods/etc; Detection still treated like one "school"
-2) Force of spells == area, not Magic Attribute
-3) Limit spellcasting successes to Force
--a) Net successes only?
--b) Total successes?
-4) Spell Defense comes from Spell Pool only?
--a) No Spell Defense specialization for Sorcery
-5) Magic more subtle? Less subtle?
-6) Spell ranges? Casting spells further away == penalties to cast.
--a) Grimoire had penalties for extreme ranges due to visibility.
150 m or less: no penalty
151-300m: +2
301-600m: +4
601-1250m: +6
1251-2500m: +8
2501-5000m: +10
5001m: no valid target
--b) Short(TN+0)/Medium(TN+1)/Long(TN+2)/Extreme(TN+5), as with SR3 ranged weapons
--c) Cover+Concealment applies to spells
-7) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
-8) Manipulation as a category is too broad
--a Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
--b Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
-9) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
--a) Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
--b) For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
--c) Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
-10) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)
-11) Increase Reflexes--replace Increase Reaction, and Reflexes I, II, III
--a) Changed to +1d6INI per successes
--b) Changed to +1 Reaction/two successes, plus +1d6INI per three successes.
--c) Change TN:Reaction, Drain:+1(D)
--d) combine with Force == max successes rule. See C-3.

D) Spirit changes
-1) Watchers suck/use different rules than normal spirits
--a) Watchers use same Search rules as other spirits (see 2), but have additional penalties for finding non-astral targets.
--b) Allow cheap "Bind as guard" option, as elementals have, to replace expensive and useless long-term summon option. Watchers can only guard astral space.
--c) Watchers must make a test to stay interested in mundane affair, even under orders.
-2) Search is odd
--a) Wider area == higher TN
--b) Communicating what to search for is nontrivial
--c) Dependent on communication between spirit and summoner (summoner's Int? Spirit's Int? Some sort of description skill?).
--d) Dependent on summoner's knowledge of the target.
--e) Should be the same rules for Watchers and other spirits? Similar but with special restrictions for the Watchers? Maybe non-Watcher spirits can search for physical objects more easily than Watchers?
--f) Adapt SR4's Search rules?
-3) Astral Patrols
--a) Base area changed to 10x sizes given in MitS.
-4) Immunity to Normal Weapons needs changing
--a) Changes should be made to hardened armor as well.
--b) Provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets.
-5) Contest of Wills needs changing
--a) Eliminate reach bonuses (Fishing Pole of Elemental-squishing +2!), and replace with something more sensible.
--b) What would you say about mundanes and Manifesting mages being able to have a Contest of Wills?
-6) Make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings
--a) TN of 12 (9 maybe?) minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute to detect within (Essence) meters.
--b) TN of 12 - the perceiving character's Essence - the spirit's Force/Magic
--c) How to make Geasea+Conjuring work?
-7) Ally spirits
--a) Should not cost more (or at least much more) to upgrade than create.
--b) Stats should not be independent of Force, even after creation.

E) Grounding Revisited
-1) Max Force of spell == max Force of astral-physical link.
-2) Spells only travel in opposite direction to link (eg. Perceiving mage can only ground astral-cast spell to physical plane; materializing spirit can only ground physical-cast spell to the astral plane).
-3) Simplify Grounding rules to be more like Masking through a ward (synch aura, etc)
-4) Grounding as Metamagic technique?

F) Revamping geasea
-1) Gesture/Talisman/Incantation Geasea require a Free Action during your turn devoted to each geas before using any magical skill. This means someone with more than one of the three will be forced to waste a pass chanting or waving their hands around before casting a spell, for instance.
-2) Maybe we can cross-pollinate the aspected abilities of Aspected Mages, and the limitations of the different Geasea? I imagine a guy taking a Sorcery-only Geas after losing a lot of Essence to a single cybersurgery, for instance, or an Aspected Mage who can only use his magic at night, rather than the limited range of canon limitations for aspected mages.
-3) Geasea apply to specific spells/spirits
--a) No more Magic Loss from Deadly wounds
--b) Would work like fetish/exclusive limitations on spells.
-4) Scrap Geasea altogether

G) Ritual Tracking should be doable by one person.

H) Magic EATING PUPPIES
-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
--a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs.
--b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties.
--c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis.
-2) Spells eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
-3) Spirits eating puppies: summoning spirits requires stealing life force from surrounding life. Temporary Essence Drain-like effect on everyone nearby (especially the mage); resistance is harder/permenant as Force increases?
-4) Wards/enchanting eating puppies: ward creation/item creation requires bloodletting?
-5) Condition Geas: Must club baby seal before casting spell. :)

I) Foci
-1) Make Addiction stick to people more? Remove it entirely?
-2) Remove combat with foci/astral objects

J) Ward-making
-1) Mundanes can learn a Ward Creation knowledge skill, similar to Talismongering?
--a) As can Awakened, allowing them to create wards that exceed their Magic rating.
-2) Vehicle warding, the definitive answer.
-3) Use SR4's idea, of a ward being a barrier projecting from an object.
--a) If warded object moves, but walls move with it (ie. warded vehicle; object in vehicle), ward stays intact.
--b) If warded object moves relative to barrier walls then ward is destroyed.
-4) Wards contacting other wards; do they fight?
-5) Wards inside other wards. Can it be done?
-6) Spontaneous appearance of wards around areas...
--a) ...w/ strong sense of community, togetherness. Eg. close-knit family homes, mom-and-pop stores, churches.
--b) ...w/ strong sense of suspicion, distrust of outsiders. Eg. cult meeting houses, racist homes, gang territories.
--c) Enhance effect w/ Feng Shui knowledge skill?

K) Initiation
-1) Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
--a) Magic Rating boosted like other attributes; "racial" max == Essence+Initiation Grade.
--b) Essence Loss acts as a penalty, so raising Magic costs more for less benefit with cyber.
-2) To join an initiation group, candidate rolls Magic or highest magic skill vs. TN 4 + (size of group/10) + 1 per pt of magic lost - 1 per initiate grade. Group may spend karma pool on behalf of candidate.
--a) Alternatively - divide size of group by 5
--b) Alternatively - increases based on the highest grade within the group
--c) Alternatively - allow for EITHER above and first idea based on style of group(cult of personality vs. communal paradise)
--d) Alternative 6 which lost me (TN based on Group Size Factor, based on highest Initiate Grade/2 + grades of highest graded individuals/2)
--e) Alternatively, Mag. Theory or Etiquette(Magic) roll vs TN of 4 + members of group/5, +2 for not being initiated
-3) You cannot get more initiate grades than your original magic rating (natural max of 12, 10 with 1 point of cyber, etc.)
-4) Add metamagic to allow a caster to sustain a spell with spell pool

[Eyeless Blond]

Note a few other ideas I snuck in there. Of particular interest to me are the astralpsychosis ideas:

H-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
--a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs.
The idea being that too much magic tends to make people too "intense". They're infused with the essence of life to a degree that most people cannot fathom or understand, and this makes them... weird, to those that haven't had the same experience. Most of these are designed with fading penalties in mind, so that GDs and IEs don't have to have ten thousand mental disorders (though they certainly CAN).

--b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties.
Again, pretty straightforward. The rationale is: the stronger the connection between your body and astral self, the more you "feel" things, especially disharmonies and imbalances like wounds.

--c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis.
...maybe according to the table below? Include a note that GMs can feel free to assign whatever neurosis he feels like; the below is just a guide. Note that all neuroses are pretty crippling; do you think I'm going too far here?

[Demon_Bob]

Tried to read and follow entire thread before responding but got a little hazey along the way and forgot what had been covered already.

[Eyeless Blond]

That's the thing; almost none of it has. I think the only bits that even have anything like a consensus is some of the spell stuff (Force==max successes, area==Force, not Magic, etc). Everything else up there is still either up for debate, or hasn't been commented on by more than one or two people.

My advice is just take it a letter at a time. Read through it, see what you like/don't like, then post that one and move on to the next. We need some serious work on this one; unlike the Decking thread there's been nothing decided on here, just lots and lots of ideas.