Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened, the SR3R way Options

[nezumi]

:love: I love those astral psychosis ideas. I want me some crazies!

That said, I sort of fall in the 'loony GM' category, so a more objective voice should probably weigh heavier.

[hyzmarca]

Magic is mostly an unimportant stat. A magician can get away with a magic of 5 or even 4 if he is willing to overcast and a magic higher than 6 is completely unnecessary unless he is willing to invest a great deal of time and karma learning spells at force 7 or above (since it can't be done at chargen).
It might be wise to make the magic stat a bit more useful, other than just adding to spell pool.

Spells eating puppies is by far the most consistent with fluff. How about casting spells and summoning uses up mana in the area, making it unusable for any other purpose. Every time a spell is cast or a spirit is summoned it creates a Background count of Force/Magic within a radius of Magic meters from the caster (since a higher Magic rating allows him to draw mana from a wider area). This BC is reduced by 1 every (pick a useful number) combat turns but multiple acts of magic stack. A giant magic battle could potentially turn an area into a mana wap, if only for a few minutes.

[Eyeless Blond]

Because this basically became the SR3R Magic thread:

[Kagetenshi]

I posted those in the SR3R main thread precisely because I was trying to avoid this becoming the SR3R all-magic thread :) though the distinction does blur pretty easily.

As for psionics, it's not a horrible idea but I'd rather reduce the degree to which anyone who views magic in a way other than Shamanic or Hermetic is at all correct rather than increase its legitimacy.

~J

[Link]

Summary (for p10:)

[ Spoiler ]

A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2) When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.
-3) Astral plane changes
--a) Add a new set of astral-only critters, to make the astral plane more like an alien ecosystem.
--b) Nonliving matter cannot be seen from the astral unless the mage is manifesting.
--c) Changes to Search and Patrol functions available to spirits--see D:Spirit Changes.
--d) "I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed" --don't know what this means.
--e) Metaplanar travel is harder/requires more preparation.
--f) Interaction between astral and physical--see E:Grounding Revisited.
--g) Impede ability to exactly gauge distances and positions for non-living things
--h) No sound penetration from astral<->physical unless manifest.
--i) Mundanes can sense unmanifested spirits more easily, and at range. (See D-6)

B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?
-3) Cyberpsychosis; low-Essence characters' social/healing problems caused by low connection between astral body/physical body, not just presence of chrome as described in books.
--a) Body kept at low Essence while projecting; too much projection may cause same effects as cyberpsychosis?
-4) Low connection to body == difficult to affect w/ wpells.
--a) Add TN of Essence Loss (or Essence Loss / 2) to all spellcasting TNs/spirit power TNs, other than indirect combat spells etc.

C) Spell/Sorcery Changes
-1) Direct/Indirect Detection Spells
--a) Indirect Detection spells not resisted, or resisted only by person using the sense rather than targets, much like indirect illusion spells.
--b) Detect X/Combat Sense *are* resisted, while things like Nightvision/Clairvoyance are not.
--c) No such thing as "Improved Area" for Spell Creation; if you want to improve your area, increase Force (see 2)
--d) No change to totem mods/etc; Detection still treated like one "school"
-2) Force of spells == area, not Magic Attribute
-3) Limit spellcasting successes to Force
--a) Net successes only?
--b) Total successes?
-4) Spell Defense comes from Spell Pool only?
--a) No Spell Defense specialization for Sorcery
-5) Magic more subtle? Less subtle?
-6) Spell ranges? Casting spells further away == penalties to cast.
--a) Grimoire had penalties for extreme ranges due to visibility.
150 m or less: no penalty
151-300m: +2
301-600m: +4
601-1250m: +6
1251-2500m: +8
2501-5000m: +10
5001m: no valid target
--b) Short(TN+0)/Medium(TN+1)/Long(TN+2)/Extreme(TN+5), as with SR3 ranged weapons
--c) Cover+Concealment applies to spells
-7) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
-cool.gif Manipulation as a category is too broad
--a Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
--b Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
-9) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
--a) Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
--b) For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
--c) Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
-10) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)
-11) Increase Reflexes--replace Increase Reaction, and Reflexes I, II, III
--a) Changed to +1d6INI per successes
--b) Changed to +1 Reaction/two successes, plus +1d6INI per three successes.
--c) Change TN:Reaction, Drain:+1(D)
--d) combine with Force == max successes rule. See C-3.
-12) Gecko Crawl and Levitate have the exact same target numbers and drain codes. Now, Gecko Crawl doesn't increase your TN if you mass more than 100 kilos, but is that really a big enough compensation for losing both the ability to use it to manipulate objects and the ability to leave surfaces?

D) Spirit changes
-1) Watchers suck/use different rules than normal spirits
--a) Watchers use same Search rules as other spirits (see 2), but have additional penalties for finding non-astral targets.
--b) Allow cheap "Bind as guard" option, as elementals have, to replace expensive and useless long-term summon option. Watchers can only guard astral space.
--c) Watchers must make a test to stay interested in mundane affair, even under orders.
-2) Search is odd
--a) Wider area == higher TN
--b) Communicating what to search for is nontrivial
--c) Dependent on communication between spirit and summoner (summoner's Int? Spirit's Int? Some sort of description skill?).
--d) Dependent on summoner's knowledge of the target.
--e) Should be the same rules for Watchers and other spirits? Similar but with special restrictions for the Watchers? Maybe non-Watcher spirits can search for physical objects more easily than Watchers?
--f) Adapt SR4's Search rules?
-3) Astral Patrols
--a) Base area changed to 10x sizes given in MitS.
-4) Immunity to Normal Weapons needs changing
--a) Changes should be made to hardened armor as well.
--b) Provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets.
-5) Contest of Wills needs changing
--a) Eliminate reach bonuses (Fishing Pole of Elemental-squishing +2!), and replace with something more sensible.
--b) What would you say about mundanes and Manifesting mages being able to have a Contest of Wills?
-6) Make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings
--a) TN of 12 (9 maybe?) minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute to detect within (Essence) meters.
--b) TN of 12 - the perceiving character's Essence - the spirit's Force/Magic
--c) How to make Geasea+Conjuring work?
-7) Ally spirits
--a) Should not cost more (or at least much more) to upgrade than create.
--b) Stats should not be independent of Force, even after creation.

E) Grounding Revisited
-1) Max Force of spell == max Force of astral-physical link.
-2) Spells only travel in opposite direction to link (eg. Perceiving mage can only ground astral-cast spell to physical plane; materializing spirit can only ground physical-cast spell to the astral plane).
-3) Simplify Grounding rules to be more like Masking through a ward (synch aura, etc)
-4) Grounding as Metamagic technique?

F) Revamping geasea
-1) Gesture/Talisman/Incantation Geasea require a Free Action during your turn devoted to each geas before using any magical skill. This means someone with more than one of the three will be forced to waste a pass chanting or waving their hands around before casting a spell, for instance.
-2) Maybe we can cross-pollinate the aspected abilities of Aspected Mages, and the limitations of the different Geasea? I imagine a guy taking a Sorcery-only Geas after losing a lot of Essence to a single cybersurgery, for instance, or an Aspected Mage who can only use his magic at night, rather than the limited range of canon limitations for aspected mages.
-3) Geasea apply to specific spells/spirits
--a) No more Magic Loss from Deadly wounds
--b) Would work like fetish/exclusive limitations on spells.
-4) Scrap Geasea altogether

G) Ritual Tracking should be doable by one person.

H) Magic EATING PUPPIES
-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
--a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs.
--b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties.
--c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis.
--d) The Psionics tradition, being a somewhat more "rational" tradition than others, doesn't receive these penalties, or at least fewer of them.
-2) Spells eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
-3) Spirits eating puppies: summoning spirits requires stealing life force from surrounding life. Temporary Essence Drain-like effect on everyone nearby (especially the mage); resistance is harder/permenant as Force increases?
-4) Wards/enchanting eating puppies: ward creation/item creation requires bloodletting?
-5) Condition Geas: Must club baby seal before casting spell. smile.gif

H-2) Spells/magic use eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
--a) Creates a Background count of Force/Magic within a Magic radius of Magic meters from the caster
--b) This BC is reduced by 1 every (pick a useful number) combat turns but multiple acts of magic stack. A giant magic battle could potentially turn an area into a mana wap, if only for a few minutes.
--c) Additional rule: mage uses lowest background count within (Magic) meters to cast spell.
--d) Makes Magic att. more important.

I) Foci
-1) Make Addiction stick to people more? Remove it entirely?
-2) Remove combat with foci/astral objects

J) Ward-making
-1) Mundanes can learn a Ward Creation knowledge skill, similar to Talismongering?
--a) As can Awakened, allowing them to create wards that exceed their Magic rating.
-2) Vehicle warding, the definitive answer.
-3) Use SR4's idea, of a ward being a barrier projecting from an object.
--a) If warded object moves, but walls move with it (ie. warded vehicle; object in vehicle), ward stays intact.
--b) If warded object moves relative to barrier walls then ward is destroyed.
-4) Wards contacting other wards; do they fight?
-5) Wards inside other wards. Can it be done?
-6) Spontaneous appearance of wards around areas...
--a) ...w/ strong sense of community, togetherness. Eg. close-knit family homes, mom-and-pop stores, churches.
--b) ...w/ strong sense of suspicion, distrust of outsiders. Eg. cult meeting houses, racist homes, gang territories.
--c) Enhance effect w/ Feng Shui knowledge skill?

K) Initiation
-1) Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
--a) Magic Rating boosted like other attributes; "racial" max == Essence+Initiation Grade.
--b) Essence Loss acts as a penalty, so raising Magic costs more for less benefit with cyber.
-2) To join an initiation group, candidate rolls Magic or highest magic skill vs. TN 4 + (size of group/10) + 1 per pt of magic lost - 1 per initiate grade. Group may spend karma pool on behalf of candidate.
--a) Alternatively - divide size of group by 5
--b) Alternatively - increases based on the highest grade within the group
--c) Alternatively - allow for EITHER above and first idea based on style of group(cult of personality vs. communal paradise)
--d) Alternative 6 which lost me (TN based on Group Size Factor, based on highest Initiate Grade/2 + grades of highest graded individuals/2)
--e) Alternatively, Mag. Theory or Etiquette(Magic) roll vs TN of 4 + members of group/5, +2 for not being initiated
-3) You cannot get more initiate grades than your original magic rating (natural max of 12, 10 with 1 point of cyber, etc.)
-4) Add metamagic to allow a caster to sustain a spell with spell pool

L)
-1) what are the effects of a mage with Focused Concentration ingesting Psyche? No additional bonus? Something else?

[Link]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Kagetenshi]

[Eyeless Blond]

An alternate idea is to have Levitate give off that "Geek-me glow" the way the Armor spell does. :)

[Kagetenshi]

I'm not sure that really changes much—ok, so it reduces the power of invisible levitation, and means you can't float around stealthily in the dark, but unlike the Armor spell Levitation gives a pretty big hint that there's something magical going on already—namely, there's something floating around in the air.

~J

[nezumi]

The problem with Gecko Crawl is that its limited in its versatility. You can only follow the walls to get around, whereas levitation can float you anywhere you please. Making levitation glow also puts limits on its versatility. Gecko Crawl becomes more sneaky, levitate becomes more powerful. In an occupation where stealth is most valuable, any spell which cuts into that stealth significantly reduces its value. I think the glow is a quick and elegant solution which brings the two approximately on par (if that's really our concern).

[Eyeless Blond]

Okay, we've gone a week without a post; that's quite enough.

Let's start by getting rid of A and B, mostly because I thought most of B was resolved already, and the two are related enough that they should go together.

Reference:

[ Spoiler ]

A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2) When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.

B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?

(For those paying attention, note that I'm deliberately leaving out section A3, and B3-4 at the moment, in the interest of one debate at a time).

So, what essentially needs deciding here is this: is Essence an attribute of the astral body and it's connection with the physical body (as per B1), or an attribute of the physical body, and the energy it provides to create/sustain the astral body (B2)? In other words, is the astral body created and maintained by the body (B2), or does it exist independently (B1)?

This is immediately relevant to us first because if the astral body is created and maintained by the body, then it implies A2, that a connection must exist between the physical body and an astral body, even when the astral body is projecting. If the astral body only exists because the physical body creates it, then cutting it off from the physical body would mean it ceases to exist. You could argue that is exactly what it happening, that the loss of Essence is the astral body's slow death as it is cut off from the physical body, but that would imply that the astral body has some sort of inherent existence, that it can possess an amount of Essence that it can use to sustain itself. Only if the astral body has some sort of inherent existence in and of itself does it make sense for it to be possible to completely shut off contact with the physical body.

It is important to note, though, that the astral body having its own existence does not necessarily mean that the astral body *must* disassociate completely from the physical body while projecting; in other words B1 does not necessarily imply A1 in the same way that B2 implies A2.


Myself, I vote to go with B1 and A2. B1 makes more sense for me when looking at the Essence costs of cyberware; I have less of a problem reasoning that bone lacing for instance reduces Essence because it makes your astral self less in-tune with your physical body than I do thinking that bone lacing somehow sucks energy out of your body that would otherwise be used to create and maintain your astral self. A2 I like solely because I like the idea of snapback, that you can knock yourself out to essentially do a metaplanar shortcut back to your body. It gives astral projection the same safety net as decking, where you can jack out if things are just too hot, though in either case you leave your signature behind for anyone to follow if they so desire.

Thoughts? Comments? Votes?

[Kagetenshi]

Personally, I'm more of a fan of B1 and A1—precisely because I'm not a fan of snapback. I could be convinced depending on how much else we do with Astral Space, but right now Astral Space is generally friendlier than Matrixspace, which makes me think that the same safety nets shouldn't be available.

~J

[hyzmarca]

Personally, I'm a fan of Essence being treated as an attribute of the whole self and not of a single Astral or Physical body, analogous to ED Patterns. Essence Loss from projection happens to both bodies at the same rate because Astral Projection is essentially cutting yourself in half, with the Physical part of your Pattern staying in one place while the Mental part of the Pattern wanders around disconnected. By the same token, if you cut yourself in half, longways , both halves might be able to survive independently for a while. Each half of your brain is able to function independently of the other. But, if you crudely cut yourself in half with a sword or something, you're two halves will almost certainly die as your blood and internal organs spill out.
Projection creates two separate but connected essences each with gaping bleeding wounds in them where they were once was connected.

I am also not a fan of snapback. I would prefer that any projecting individual should be able to instinctively find his own body due to an unbreakable connection but this requires conscious effort. Other characters can use Ritual Tracking to follow this connection in either direction. Characters who are knocked unconscious while projecting would die if they do not wake up in time to return to their bodies.

[Link]

[nezumi]

I still like to think of the astral self as 'running on batteries' and the body as the recharger. That helps explain how things like drain and cyberware works on essence, to a degree. Going off that, I would go with A1, with all its clauses, and B-2.

[Demon_Bob]

[darthmord]

I would have to go with B1, A2.

Even then, it's not a tight fight. I see Essence as the measure of the soul's connection to the meat body. Then again, I also see Astral Projection as taking your soul out for a jaunt.

This has the obvious side effect of nothing being home in the body which would encourage the body to start shutting down after a period of time.

I definitely see A2. Mainly because that's how I interpret the rules as well as well as it makes sense.

A Decker gets dumped. His mind doesn't just get lost in the Matrix. When he recovers from the dumpshock, he's in his own head. Why shouldn't the Astral be the same way? So, yes I'm a fan of snap-back. It's effectively re-creating dumpshock, magical style.

But the above is how my SR games have always been run in terms of this sort of stuff. The players never complained about it and we all got on with the fragging, chunky salsa effects, and pay-data.

(for those that wonder, yes I'm a long-time lurker and recent forum sign-up)

[nezumi]

[Link]

The tally so far...
A2 B1
A1 B1
A1 B2
A1 B2
A1 B1
A2 B1
The tribe has spoken.

[Kagetenshi]

Unless I'm missing something, that looks like an even 2-2-2 split. As such, unless some convincing argument comes forth, I'm going to make a ruling soon so we can move on.

~J

[Link]

I saw it as 2:1 for A1 over A2 and B1 over B2. Depends on how inter-related A & B are.

[nezumi]

I'll toss out an easy suggestion -

When a spirit or watcher is destroyed or disrupted, the caster is NOT instantly aware of this, nor is the caster aware when the spirit runs out of time and disappears (unless he took note initially of how long the spirit would last and just watched the clock), if it got distracted and wandered off, so on and so forth.

Related, the control spirit wording should be rephrased. If the caster isn't there, he shouldn't know if his spirit gets stolen. Rather, I suggest the modified mechanic:

If the caster is present, anyone trying to control the caster's spirit follows the rules as stated in the rules. Both suffer drain as appropriate, blah blah.

If the caster is NOT present, the second mage must get more successes than the caster has remaining favors (remember, favors represent successes on the initial summoning). If the spirit has 0 favors owed to either mage, or the new mage goes unconscious, the spirit goes uncontrolled. Regardless, only the new mage rolls drain, the original caster does not.


Thoughts?

[Link]

[Sphynx]

Anyone have a list of all the rule-changes thus far for magic?

One thing I would like to see somewhat changed is Astral Perception (duh... we all seem to want that, just no agreeing on how). It's too powerful right now, you 'see' everything and a GM has to really bend the rules or rules-lawyer them alot to 'fix' alot of the problems; as do players often enough.

Example: If you see someone's aura that you've seen before. You immediately recognize it. I can't even tell you what someone looked like that I met a week ago, and a good chance I wouldn't recognize them if I didn't get friendly with them, after a week. My aura-memory shouldn't be better. There's not even a "these 2 auras seem kinda similar' aspect, they're all so completely different it seems that you insta recognize them despite completely different moods the same person might have between then and now. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom how you'd recognize my aura right now when you see it again next week and my mood/attitude/actions have all changed. Or how it's so much different than yours when we're both 'feeling' pretty similarly.

Another example... Invisibility, which in my opinion, shouldn't be visible on the Astral. 'sense'able, I'm ok with (after all, with thermal organ bioware you can sense the invisible on the physical plane). But auto-detect, I'm not ok with. I think you should auto-sense that someone/thing is invisible near you, that hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck sorta thing, but not a clear sight/visual as it is now, which helps pull it away from a more visual sense and into a more 'new' sense.

I'd also like to see Astral Perception made a bit stronger too, but in a different aspect. I think it should be your 6th sense. You can't shut-off your hearing/sight/etc, neither should you be able to shut off your 6th sense. However, like vision, you don't have to 'focus' on something with it (which makes you astrally active), but you should 'sense' with it. I think this should include a rule that anyone with astral perception can often 'see' things that mundanes can't. You might assume that the astrally projecting mage by the window is actually a mundane person standing there, not realizing he's spying on your meeting. Or think ghosts are real people at times. Etc etc.

I think too much effort has gone into making perception a mechanic and not a roleplaying tool in the recent editions. While I'm always ok with more mechanics, I think the game would be better with a different twist to perception. Thoughts?