 Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened, the SR3R way |
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 Aug 27 2005, 11:24 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093  |
You see, I can handle the oddness of 1 and 2, though they run counter to how I always envisioned Shadowrun magic to work (and starts to create problems along the way), but this, this is something you shouldn't even consider changing. Astral scouting is exactly as it should be. You get locations, possibly cyber content, possibly awakened-ness (but neither necessarily), ward locations and emotional/health analysis. Other than that, nada. Very little non-magical information is acessible from the astral. No secret documents can be read, no cameras can be shut off, no computers hacked into, no doors opened, etc, etc, etc. Astral scouting is useful, but very, very limited. So condition 2 already applies. The important places already have condition 1 applied to them, and the average or not-so-important places wouldn't be expected to have it anyways. (why would grandma patterson down the hall have biofiber coating her walls? Hmmm, methinks she is not what she seems). As to 3, mundanes ARE just helpless to astral scouting, just like the average citizen is HELPLESS against a malicious decker, or a vicious Cybered-up killer! But unlike the first two, the worst an astral scout could do is WATCH them, maybe get a good eyeful of that cold you've caught, or the datajack in your head. Maybe, if he's lucky, he might even get to watch you screw somebody. This ain't a problem (except in the ethical sense). The reason it was changed from SR2 to SR3 was probably because it really didn't work in SR2. It creates too many problems and inconsistencies, while the current system works totally fine. |
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Aug 28 2005, 12:04 AM
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#27
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
How about this: The ability for a living thing to impede the movement of an astral-only body depends on the fact that the cells in living tissue are "connected" astrally. The little invisible connections that bind an organism's aura together synergize to create an overall "mass" aura, much like knitting a sweater out of loose bits of yarn. Thus, more complicated creatures (creatures with metahuman-level Essence) are more likely to impede astral movement than lesser creatures (single-cell organisms or simple multi-cellular organisms like yeast). This is also why using tissue samples from an organism can be used to track the organism, or even vice versa (reverse Ritual tracking).
This is also important as far as astral tracking is concerned. The lower a person's Essence, the "fewer" the connections in the mass aura and the lower the integrity of a person's astral connections (the invisible yarn that binds his aura together). Thus, tissue samples from individuals with lower Essence have ties that unravel faster, and are less useful for astral tracking (degrade in Essence hours). Because a person's Essence also determines how long they can stay in the Astral plane, the Essence degradation represents the person's extended aura "unraveling" the longer it stays away from its "home". With FAB, it depends on whether or not you are using the "new" or the "old" model. In the Corporate Security Handbook (SR2 rules), FAB was not dual-natured. You could justify FAB as bacteria that artificially produces the "astral ties" needed to impede astral movement between individual colonies, through some product (probably accidental) of gene engineering. In Magic in the Shadows (SR3 rules), FAB is dual natured, and thus is "solid" as far as astral travelers are concerned. I've always liked the ability for Ivy and biomatter and other "mundane" ways to counter an astral scout. However, running things as SR2's magical universe is a complete shift from SR3 (just as SR3 was a complete shift from SR2), and I honestly don't think that is completely in tune with the goal of SR3R (providing a revised ruleset without completely overhauling the overall spec of the rules). |
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Aug 30 2005, 05:13 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-July 03 Member No.: 4,891 |
Astral scouting does let you find all the living things in an area, which is very powerful in my experience. Being able to spy undetectably on all the guards and potential witnesses is very handy. Also, it's an easy way to check the true layout of the building, regardless of what the filed plans say. If your target is a person (extraction, assassination, whatever), you can't necessarily identify them from the astral but you surely can make a start of it. In short, I think you're underestimating the ability to spy undetectably on living things and fixtures.
This is the approach I've taken in practice, but it doesn't satisfy. First, wards are terribly expensive to keep running at those rates: supposing that the service maintains all your wards for that price, the price to protect one building for one year is 876000 :nuyen: . If that price is per ward, then of course the total cost multiplies ferociously. For the corporate headquarters it's reasonable to spend 100 times that, but for each research lab and monitoring station it's a painful expense, and completely out of the question for almost all private homes. This analysis doesn't even include the mage's retainer, though it probably washes out in the cost of the wards anyway. The other problem with this approach is that it leaves any dual-natured PCs out in the cold, as they can't enter the target building without tripping all the astral security.
With all of that said...hahnsoo makes a lot of sense. I like life-as-barrier, and will probably add it to my game, but it's a big shift for SR3R, and it's not as important to the underlying logic of magic that we're trying to establish as the other two points are. Can we hear more debate on those? |
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Aug 30 2005, 05:14 AM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Proposal #3 has fallen to the arguments against it. I think regarding point #1 that the implications of separation are still preferable to the implications of linkedness, but Herald of Verjigorm brought up a point regarding difficulty of locating a moved body that is unaddressed.
More as things evolve, and as always comments are welcome. ~J |
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Aug 30 2005, 02:02 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
I'm always amazed how people can take something easy to understand and then make it difficult to grasp. There is nothing wrong with the Astral rules the way they are. The implications of what you are doing makes everything just a little more unbalanced.
After all basically you are allowing any astral projecting person to essentially knock out or kill any mundane without anything more than his astral fists or weapon focus. How long is even a maxed out troll going to live against an opponent he cannot see, can by pass his armor, and he is unable to out maneuver? Becuase that is the can of worms you are opening by aking living object solid on the astral. |
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Aug 30 2005, 02:08 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's based on a false extrapolation of rulings based on a proposal that has been canned. Next?
~J |
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Aug 30 2005, 02:18 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
No, it is based off reality. If something is solid you can hit it. If it can be hurt based on how hard you hit it, you can destroy it evenutally. Simple and quite effective. I may miss ground to manifestation, but the 'pane of glass' is prefferrable to have the mage gain even more power.
The way I see it, you don't like astral reconnisance, but are too lazy to work all the nice inexpensive ways of dealing with it. 1. Bound Elemental: For a trivial cost a force 6 elemental will watch an entire floor of a building forever. 2. Astral mages: Fight fire with fire. 3. Dual natured paracritters: hellhounds are your friends |
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Aug 30 2005, 02:23 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 7,565 |
You're confused, man. Even in SR2 style astral projection (which I liked, and which is what Kage was trying to bring back here) beings on the astral couldn't affect beings on the physical plane. The 'solidness' was strictly one way. |
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Aug 30 2005, 02:26 PM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The problem we were trying to address was that this was a "you can't fight fire with anything but fire" situation. There were, and are, no non-magical countermeasures to astral projection.
You're right that changing it does change a whole host of other things that we weren't expecting (even if it doesn't change what you think it's changing). That would be why we're posting our proposals here and asking other people to comment on it. ~J |
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Aug 30 2005, 05:46 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Ok i like the idea of nnot feeling what happens to your body while you are out. However i also think that the damage should exsist for both forms. Ie your Body takes a Serious while your out, your astral form takes a serious while away also. you've got 12 boxes of damge when you rejoin with your body. Thus so as you don't get too shocked when you come back to your body, it becomes a good idea to assence for wounds upon return.
I like this one. helps to explain Cyberzombies a bit as well.
Don't like this one at all. The ability to fly through trees and such as previously mentioned should be allowed. Thats not including the likes of various forms of (mundane) astral detection get removed from the game. |
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Aug 30 2005, 11:44 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-July 03 Member No.: 4,891 |
You're assuming that astral space has a concept of inertia. It doesn't. If an astral form tries to move someplace it can't, it comes to a perfect stop. When the projecting mage tries to punch Mr. Mundane in the nose, his fist stops right where the guy's nose begins, with no harm to either party. If you've read Snow Crash, think back to the way that the motorcycles worked in the Metaverse; it's the same idea. That's how I would run it, anyway. The above is not SR3R canon, since
That's how it would work according to Kagetenshi's proposal. If your astral form takes a serious, and your physical form takes a serious, then on recombination you're into overdamage. Hope Body wasn't your dump stat...
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Aug 31 2005, 01:18 AM
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#37
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
This may seem like a silly idea, but I will offer it as an alternative to solid auras.
Maybe the "pane of glass" between Astral and physical isn't fully transparent. Maybe it is more like frosted glass, distorting and obscuring the mirror image of the physical world that is projected onto the astral plane. Perhaps viewing purely physical object from astral is like looking through the mother of all funhouse mirrors. Maybe a dense concentration of overlapping auras interferes with astral sight the same way the glare from bright lights interferes with physical sight. Maybe when auras are too dense a mage mas to make an assensing test to tell one from another. This would reduce the usefulness of astral recon while allowing astral beings to retain their free movement. In dense foliage, an astral being will have difficulty telling the difference between a plant, a metahuman, and a raccoon. Put a few dozen potted plants in the guard barracks and the Astral mage can't be sure to make an accurate head count. Against nonliving objects the mage is even more fragged. Unless he makes the perception test he can't tell the difference between a garden sprinkler and a minigun turret. He can't be sure if the secret corporate hanger contains a lightly armed rotodrone, a helicopter, or a kilometer-wide heliofortress. |
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Aug 31 2005, 02:35 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
On the idea of the frosted plane of glass, the astral perception modifiers from MitS simulate this to a degree.
Crowded biomass eg. a busy dancefloor, water 50m deep or less +2 or Packed biomass eg. thick jungle, packed subway train +4
Looking for mundane, physical object +2 Astral Light fog/smoke +1 Thick fog/smoke +2 Open flame +2 Intense flame eg. inside a blast furnace +3 Looking for mundane, physical object +2 Background count +level Crowded biomass eg. a busy dancefloor, water 50m deep or less +2 Packed biomass eg. thick jungle, packed subway train +4 |
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Aug 31 2005, 02:46 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Another bit to worry about is you can hear spoken words just fine, so listening to the secret corporate plot (or whatever is quite easy). Of course, a lot of business meetings would be held in the matrix instead, to no spoken words would be involved.
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Aug 31 2005, 03:33 PM
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#40
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, my 2 cents:
Option 1&2 is a whole lot of work just to make it possible for a mage to get himself lost while projecting. Honestly I don't think any of the changes are really necessary at all; all you need to change is the theory a little. Here's how I think of it: In magic, everything is connected. Bits of bricks are connected to buildings; leaves are connected to trees that spawned them, and an astral form is connected to the body that spawned it. This is true whether that astral form is a nature spirit or elemental, a watcher, an ally, even the major astral form a mage creates while projecting. This is why ritual magic works, why allies and other spirits can be called through weird shortcuts in the metaplanes to their masters, why an astrally projecting mage is aware of wounds to his meatbody and can be "snapped" back to his body if he is disrupted. In fact, it probably works through the same sort of metaplanar shortcut a free spirit is sucked through when someone says its name. Unfortunately for the mage he can't just snap his way back to his body any time he pleases, no more than a free spirit can snap his way anywhere he damn well pleases as if someone said his name in that spot. Call it an unconscious reflex, call it an unknown natural process, call it rules of magic, whatever you like, but that's just how it works. Does that make sense, or am I speaking Greek here? I just really don't think any of these changes are really necessary; they certainly make no more sense this way than they do the SR3 way, at least IMHO. |
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Aug 31 2005, 04:21 PM
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#41
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sorry, but I have to agree with Eyeless (and others) in that I do not believe any of the changes listed in the first post are necessary, or even warranted.
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Aug 31 2005, 04:32 PM
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#42
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'll have to think on Eyeless' suggested explanations—something in me rebels against the idea that things are mysteriously different when one is rendered unconscious than when one is conscious, but I could be convinced.
With that said, are there any inconsistencies or areas in the rules for the above that people would like to see addressed? ~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 05:18 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 8-February 05 Member No.: 7,066 |
I'm with the group that says that these rules aren't broken. I can understand a microscopic strand of connection from the body to the astral form that is always there. It is the ambilical connection that keeps them both alive. In astral combat, if you get a black eye, I can imagine your physical body automatically reflecting this by getting a black eye. Anyone pulling guard duty over your meat body would know that you've met something bad. And if your friend who is guarding you is tickling your feet, you can feel that sensation in your astral form.
So cybered mages are (minimally) limited in this respect. Even a Level 12 cybered mage with only .2 Essence left can only Project for a maximum of 10 minutes before he dies. The circumference of the earth is roughly 40,000 km at the equator. At a maximum speed of 6,000 km per hour for a non initiated awakened character, the person would die if he tried to circle the earth astrally. Now, in regards to the transparency of the astral planes, "Physical things are intangible" (not transparent). Non-astrally active beings and mundane barriers can be passed through, but not seen through. So, if you have to travel through a thick forest to get to the other side, only astrally active "things" might impede your progress. But if you have to actually find something mundane in that forest, you can't just look into the woods while hovering above it and go "Hey! There it is!" And yes, it leaves the mundane world more susceptible to astral scouting, but, as an average mundane myself, I have nothing to hide from spying eyes, and they'd be unlikely to care about my every day goings on. If you've got something valuable enough to hide, then you've just got to fork over the cash to buy the ward. Or buy yourself a paranormal pet to guard it. But, remember the lessons of Pandora. Hiding something only invites others to come find it. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:42 PM
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#44
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well why not? There is strong evidence that the conscious and unconscious mind are very different. Conscious memory, for instance, works by forgetting vast chunks of your experiences and instead focusing on the connections between events and ideas. Some theorize this is where our intelligence comes from, and that it's only really possible to think about events by forgetting about them. Unconscious memory, on the other hand--the kind of memory that can be drawn out through hypnosis and the like--is exacting in the detail it can recall to the point where people in trances can sometimes notice details that they weren't ever paying conscious attention to. For this reason I have no problem believing that an awakened mind would interact very differently to being projected from the body once it loses consciousness. |
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Sep 12 2005, 03:46 PM
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#45
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
*bump* and...
As long as we're thinking of changing things that don't really need to be changed, I've got a list of little bits from the magic section that could use some work: 1) Change "Detection spells" to allow directed and indirect subcategories, mch like illusion spells. Directed detection spells, like Detect(Object) and Mindprobe are resisted, but indirect ones like Nightvision and Clairvoyance are not resisted. 2) Make Invisability and the like, instead of being so all-or-nothing as they currently are, merely provide some kind of a bonus to whatever we finally decide to do with Stealth tests. 2a) Er, we ARE getting rid of Open Tests, aren't we? 3) Find some way to allow Ritual Tracking with only one person. In the books it is implied in some places that people have done ritual tracking all by their lonesome (example: that bounty hunter in SOTA '63 using reverse tracking to find someone) but by the current rules it's impossible, which is pretty stupid. 4) Fix Adept Geasea to actually be meaningful, rather than free stuff. Anything else? |
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Sep 12 2005, 03:54 PM
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#46
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
*Ahem* :P For what it's worth, I have not proposed a single change that I didn't think needed to be made. I may have later changed my mind in the face of counterarguments, but every change is proposed based on an apparent flaw of the system.
For clarity's sake this sounds like a good idea, but the primary value would be organizational, and we can't exactly do a full print of SR3R.
Mm. Definitely a possibility, but as you say that'll largely have to wait until we determine what happens with stealth tests.
If you want them gone you'd better hop over to the main SR3R thread and start making your case, because I like them and none of the arguments against them I've heard yet have held water.
I'm more inclined to toss the fiction than alter ritual tracking, but I'd listen to arguments in favor of single-person tracking.
My personal inclination is to ditch Geasa entirely for everyone. EDIT: except voluntary geasa to reduce power cost or as a cost/drain reducer for spells similar to fetishes or Exclusivity.
Other than the fact that I still have to make up my mind, that'll probably do for now… ~J |
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Sep 12 2005, 04:29 PM
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#47
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I personally think that Open Tests should have been dumped back in SR2. They were kinda cute for the Rocker and Reporter rules in Shadowbeat, but other than that, they are probably one of the most unbalanced and awful elements of the SR3 system. They violate the main mechanic (roll xd6 vs. a TN) and only serve to create exceptions to rules, and contributes to the "one game: many systems" syndrome that Shadowrun suffers from. But enough about Open Tests, that's not what I wanted to talk about...
The reason you cannot use Ritual Tracking as presented in MitS is the fact that you need both a material link AND a spotter, and one person can't do both. The explanation is that you use the material link to create the astral link (per standard "Linking" tests), and the spotter follows the astral link (like following a very long arrow) to the target.
The way around this for a single mage is rather simple, due to the way Astral Tracking (as opposed to Ritual Tracking) works. Simply cast a "harmless" sustained spell through standard Ritual Sorcery (which only requires a material component, and doesn't need a spotter), have it sustained by the ritual for a couple of hours, then use Astral Tracking to trace your own spell, using the standard Astral Perception (4) test (base time 6 hours). SR3 p177. Instead of following the link back to its source, you follow your own link back to the spell. Still, this process is a bit counterintuitive... the Ritual Tracking rules should incorporate this so that it's a simpler mechanic, seeing as you can do it through Ritual Sorcery anyway. |
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Sep 12 2005, 04:38 PM
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#48
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
My apologies. I should've put a smiley there so you knew I wasn't being serious. :)
Well the main point here is to create more of an even split between detection spells that allow resistance and those that don't. As it currently stands only Combat Sense is not resisted (and ironically I almost think that one *should* be) when there should really be far more that aren't resisted, IMO.
Hm. Well the only real reason I have is open tests add needless complexity to the system, but that's a difficult argument to make really. It ultimately boils down to the debate of whether a simple streamlined system is better than a more complicated yet more accurate one, and that's a holy war noone's going to win any time soon. :)
Well the main argument here is that I wanna be able to do it (:D) but maybe someone else has a better one?
Hm, not a bad idea. Beats the heck out of my old idea of weaving it together with Aspected Magery. Oh, and while I'm dragging up old dead threads, remember this? Any possability of adding any of that into SR3R? I mean, as long as we're fixing really stupid bits inherent in the system... |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:40 PM
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#49
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I would think that one of the major benefits would be to let sense-enhanced mages look at albino gnomes without going blind. |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:43 PM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I misunderstood the implication, having forgotten that Nightvision was resisted.
~J |
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