What the hell happened to dwarves? Options

[mmu1]

I'm talking about the -1 to reaction, -1 to initiative deal here.

At what point did dwarves develop slower reflexes than all the other metahumans, including trolls? I don't remember seeing any reasons for that in canon (lower agility because of short stumpy legs I can understand, but lower reaction?), and it seems like a weird way to balance out the race (if that's what this change was to do) when you can now simply adjust the cost in build points...

[Samoth]

They had -1 Quickness in SR and SR2.

[mmu1]

[Samoth]

I guess they're trying to even them out since they were the most broken SR3 class. Not sure why they'd get minuses to reaction instead of agility though.

[blakkie]

Both Agility and Reaction came from Quickness, so it is a case-by-case which way to take that -1.

P.S. Dorfs were the obvious point buy SR3 power play. Not so much anymore i guess. Also notice that they are the only race with a + to Will, which will (1/2 the time) give them an extra box of Stun condition monitor.

[Eldritch]

It's just another case of The Man Picking on the short guy again :)

[Sabosect]

Bahrayah dis! *tosses a grenade into the crowd*

Seriously, this really doesn't do much. Most of the characters I play are human anyway. Humans have always been munchkin factories, no matter the game, and will continue to be such. This just focuses them as being such.

[Toshiaki]

I think that the Reaction penalty at least makes sense, even if it hurts (as it is the Dodge stat). Reaction is not only a measure of reflexes, but also how quickly you can get your entire, short, stumpy body to follow those reflexes. Agility is more of a hand-eye coordination thing.

So, yeah, I don't think that it would be cool that a dwarf wouldn't pull his hand off a hot stove very quickly, but it does fit logically that he couldn't move out of the way of the berserk troll (which is going to be far more common).

[hahnsoo]

It's only a -1 to Reaction. Initiative is a derived stat, and the -1 to Initiative takes the -1 to Reaction into account.

[tisoz]

Reaction is also the linked attribute for piloting about everything. So much for the dwarf rigger stereotype.

Think how much dissent there would be if they had reduced Agility with all its linked skills.

[kigmatzomat]

Remember that Riggers are Deckers with a 0.5 Essence control rig now. They run vehicles from VR, where initiative is Response+Intuition so a penalty to Reaction is moot.

[tisoz]

So the Smuggler sample character wasted 36 BP on Pilot Aircraft and Pilot Ground Craft?

Or are you talking more about the former drone rigger?

[JonathanC]

I figured it's better to recycle a thread than make a whole new one. I too have a question about dwarves. I remember SR3 had a little writeup, otensibly written by a dwarf, where he explains that:

1. Dwarves are frequently mistaken for children.

2. Dwarves have human-sized torsos, and could "wear your shirts".

Now, how the hell is this possible? Anyone who is 3-4 feet tall and has a man-sized torso is not getting mistaken for a child. Any opinions on this? Has the official word on dwarf appearance changed in SR4? And if they do look like kids, why are the Japanese so hard on them? I figure they'd be hella popular with the loli-goth community. :wobble:

[Cthulhudreams]

Dwarves are still pretty slick in SR4 if you're not betting on needing agility or reaction. So for awakened characters.

Orks are the street samurai power/hacker gaming factory, getting sweet strength and body for 20 points, and the loss of logic and charisma mean not much to street sams or hackers.

[JonathanC]

That's interesting, but not exactly related to what I was asking. :)

[Glyph]

I kind of read it as dwarves being treated like children because of their size - being patted on the head or talked down to. I don't think he was implying that dwarves resemble children, only that a lot of people treat them condenscendingly because of their short stature.

[JonathanC]

Ah, okay, that makes way more sense, and is a lot less creepy (I had visions of dwarven joytoys making a killing on Myspace).

[Cardul]

[FrankTrollman]

She said she was a dwarf!

-Frank

[ElFenrir]

[JBlades]

Know what I always wondered based on that same description? If the majority (say 80%) of the difference in height for a dwarf is from his short legs, what happens if you throw human length cyber legs on a dwarf? Specifically cyberlegs that correct the height difference, and are sized correctly to his torso. Do you have a buff, tough, willful human for all intents and purposes? I've never done it, but I've wondered...

[FrankTrollman]

Honestly, I see a dwarf or two in every single game I run for 4th edition. Elves show up about half the time. I see hardly any trolls, and orks are less well represented than elves.

So yeah, since 4th edition came out, the totals I have personally seen have run:

Human
Dwarf
Elf
Ork
Troll

And in 3rd edition I saw:

Human
Elf
Ork
Dwarf
Troll


Back in first edition, I saw:

Human
Troll
Elf
Ork
Dwarf

---

A lot of that is random. And a little of that is game mechanical pressure. But mostly I chalk it up to the way the races are portrayed in the basic book. The SR4 Dwarf gets some awesome pictures in the sample character section.

Humans will always be the biggest draw, because every character concept could be run a a human.

-Frank

[ElFenrir]

Well, i didn't play 1st, but ive seen:

2e: Human, and then faaaar away Elf, Troll, Dwarf, Ork. Yeah, i saw less Orks than anyone here. Easily 90% of people i saw were human.

3e: Human, Elf, Troll/Ork tie roughly, Dwarf.

4e: Human, Ork, Elf, Troll, Dwarf.


Dwarves seem to be in the last bit throughout the time, Orks moved up as time went on, Trolls seemed to always stay in the middle, with Elves being second the entire time except for SR4. I could say that ive run into a decent 30% of SR4 characters as orks nowadays. While humans i think will always rule the roost, i think alot of players(especially new ones, or people who do pay attention to cost to attribute bonus ratio), see orks as basically a huge benefit with little hinderance(and since they can take the Human Looking edge...).

[DTFarstar]

Hmm, we have been playing SR4 2 days a week off and on for almost 10 months now, with a 2 month break while two of our players toured Europe. So... not a ton because we had problems getting enough players, but a good bit so far we have had


Humans - 6(3 were one player, she never plays anything but human)
Elves - 3
Dwarves - 1
Orks - 3
Trolls 3

If I recall correctly. One guy always plays trolls, I have played an elf and an ork, the girl always plays humans, one guy has been an ork, dwarf, and human, and another guy has played human, ork, and troll.

Chris

[Zen Shooter01]

I want to point out that dwarves don't get a -1 to reaction, -1 to initiative.

Their initiative isn't modified at all. It's Reaction + Intuition, just like everybody else's. Yes, the lower reaction results in a lower initiative, but "-1 to reaction, -1 to initiative" sounds like a total -2 to initiative.

And they don't get a "-1 to reaction", anyway. Their maximum attribute is one lower. It's an important difference. If your dwarf character concept doesn't rely on maxed out reaction, you're not really suffering. (And even if it does, it's only a difference of one point.)

However, you are getting two points of strength, one point of body, one point of willpower, thermographic vision and +2 body against pathogens for 25 bp, which is still a bargain. And you're not likely to hit your head on that max reaction of 5.

Compare that to previous editions, where the negative modifiers really were - X, where you had to buy attribute points and then lose them.