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 What the hell happened to dwarves? |
 Jan 13 2008, 02:05 PM
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#26
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The ShadowComedian  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525  |
as a dwarf there's not really all that much you're likely to hit your head on anyways *g* the one thing that will come back to bite you later on is the money you have to pay more to get things made modified to your size . . especially the bigger/more expansive things get REALLY expansive because of the % increase . . |
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Jan 13 2008, 03:02 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I didn't see it said, so I'm going to bring up the fact that the Dwarf race is the slowest race in terms of movement speed. They walk and run slower than everyone, which will be a huge problem in running away.
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Jan 13 2008, 03:15 PM
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#28
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
well, there's hover-feet and other cyber-stuff that makes you run faster isn't there?
at least it is not such a huge fixed difference as it was in SR3 . . |
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Jan 13 2008, 04:06 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Just coincidence but that ranking is actually what you get when you total the individual country demographics given in Shadows of Europe: 67.29% - Human 10.35% - Elf 09.18% - Ork 07.24% - Dwarf 04.71% - Troll |
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Jan 13 2008, 05:14 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
LOL, if dwarves have man-sized torsos, I don't see that excuse working in 2070. On the other hand, there is bodysculpting...I guess desperate dwarves could make a killing in Thailand. Ew. Pass the mind bleach? |
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Jan 13 2008, 05:21 PM
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#31
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I think it might have been in one of the GURPs cyberpunkish books, but I imagine that you have people paying docs to give their kids "Peter Pan Treatments".
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Jan 13 2008, 05:34 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Why? I mean, leonization is the life-extension treatment, and it doesn't leave you a child for your whole life. Outside of pedophiles, I can't think of a good reason why anyone would want their kids to remain children forever.
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Jan 13 2008, 06:33 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Pedophiles have a good reason?
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Jan 13 2008, 06:37 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Toxic Great Mother Shamans. |
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Jan 13 2008, 09:38 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Dwarves didn't have Attribute penalties in SR3, though, so the change in how Attributes are purchased makes orks and trolls a better deal. The dwarven disadvantages (lower running speed and requiring gear adjusted for their use) haven't changed. That's part of why orks are the new min-maxer's choice. They get a net gain of 20 points compared to a human, and their bonuses are good even for non-combat builds, since a 4 Body and 3 Strength are good levels to have those two Attributes at, and it leaves more points for other Attributes. Orks are also cooler in SR4 - they have orxploitation, ork posers, and the Or'zet language now. Dwarves, by comparison, have a net gain of 5 points compared to a human, and suffer from that lower running speed and require specially modified equipment. Dwarves can be fun to roleplay, but they are a bad choice from a purely min-maxing perspective, especially compared to SR3. Trolls give you the most net gain compared to humans (30 points), but a Strength of 5 is more than a non-combat type really needs, and the hit to the maximums on Agility and most of the mental Attributes really hurts. They make good combat-oriented characters, but are sub-optimal for other roles. Although I admit, I still like playing them in such roles, sub-optimal or not, because I like playing characters who are different than the usual stereotype of a troll. Elves are virtually the opposite of trolls - they are the only metatype that actually has a net loss of 10 points compared to a human, but they are still a viable choice because they don't have any lowered Attribute maximums or other penalties, and because their bonuses are in very useful areas. They start out a bit weaker (unless you are playing a face), but have higher potential later on. |
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Jan 13 2008, 09:45 PM
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#36
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
don't forget about their natural IR and resistance to poisons and or diseases.
if you're planning on being on the gritty and dirty side, that's worth ooh so much . . |
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Jan 13 2008, 11:46 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Dwarven mage with maxed or soft-maxed WIL can soak a lot of drain.
Dwarf is a decent choice for Technomancer (using WIL to resist Fading) or Rigger (needs WIL to resist simshock when drones take damage). Rigger has lower max on REA for the Pilot skills, but with a control rig and decent skills you can still get enough DP for most vehicle control tests. |
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Jan 13 2008, 11:56 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Well with their higher agility I always thought that Elves make a kind of natural gunbunny. If of course you are going for a combat build. Also for summoners the charisma bonus gets nasty, nothing like having a half dozen bound spirits. To be fair it takes a while to get there though.
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Jan 14 2008, 01:01 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
for riggers, the reaction attribute isn't actually as important as you might think it is.
it's gonna be a problem for people who drive vehicles in the meat, or using AR-enhanced driving, but not a problem for actual riggers, who use the response of the vehicle they are driving, +2 for having a control rig, and probably +2 for hot sim. which completely disregards reaction in every way. |
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Jan 14 2008, 03:14 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Elves are the metatype I'm least likely to use, but it's hard to argue with a boost to agility, which after all applies to virtually all combat skills, as well as infiltration and a few technical skills. Plus, much like Orks with strength, 3 is a pretty decent place to leave charisma for non-social types.
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Jan 14 2008, 04:58 AM
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#41
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well it was described as a treatment mostly aimed at the super rich who wanted their children to stay children, and yeah, it did not increase life span at all. Of course, in the fluff it was also stated as something that a subset of streetwalkers used as well, if I remember correctly the cop relating the story was suspended because she busted a companyman with a "Panner" who was actually legal age. |
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Jan 14 2008, 06:14 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
Ok, I have to say that I do agree with that, the Halfers got some great art, and, in fact, the art seems to have made them more proportional, no longer the short legs and normal sized upper bodies. Which, really, makes more sense. Basicly to me, the Dwarf's main physical differences between a human is denser muscle mass, a much more efficient immune system(which..could be a factor of their size), and their size. Now, though, as for any character concept being able to be done by a human? I suppose that depends on your idea of "concept." For me, Meta-type is an integral part of the concept, as it shapes the build..And, national origin is part of the concept as well, and no way yu are going to tell me that a Way of the Wheel practiontioner from Tir na nOg could be done as a human.. |
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Jan 14 2008, 09:26 AM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Funny you should mention that... but actually there are a few non-elves who practice path magic. They are considered pariah by the Tir government and the High Order of the Sun and the Stars denies their existence. So if you happen to be from the nOg, and you do path magic, and you're a human, then the first part of your "why I live in Seattle and run the shadows" backstory is essentially done for you. Remember that people often imprint on whatever kind of magic is around them, so someone growing up magical in a Tir elven family may well develop path magic. -Frank |
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Jan 14 2008, 11:45 AM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I was all set to comment on that very same little piece of text, but Frank pretty much covered it.
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Jan 14 2008, 06:46 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
But wouldn't proportional dwarves be, well....halflings? |
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Jan 14 2008, 07:19 PM
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#46
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
A normally proportioned dwarf is a midget, though the politically correct term is "little person". |
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Jan 14 2008, 07:48 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
That applies to humans though. I'm talking about fantasy people...Dwarves in fantasy literature have a very different build from dwarves and midgets in real life, and the same goes for Halflings, who literally just look like humans that happen to be 3 feet tall in D&D 3.x
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Jan 15 2008, 07:12 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
D&D is not Shadowrun. Dwarf is a term that has been used to apply to Little People, but they are NOT proportioned the same way as non-little people. If a SR Dwarf were proportioned the same as a SR Human, then, the Dwarf would NOT be a little person. |
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Jan 15 2008, 07:35 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Neither D&D Dwarves, D&D Halflings nor SR Dwarves (from what I can see) are proportioned like real-world Little People. Even proportional Little People usually have proportionately shorter arms, and stubby fingers.
What I was wondering is if we have any official word on what Dwarves look like now, because some pictures have them looking a bit D&D like (barrel chested, short legs, broadly built), while some (usually dwarf females) look more like gnomes or halflings, with proportionately small bodies. |
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Jan 15 2008, 02:06 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
We play that dwarves are heavier, stockier than human children so cannot where childrens cloths. The proportions don't fit.
Take the cyber feet with the wheels inside. When things get bad, pop the feet out and have an elf tow the dwarf at high speed. |
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