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> Beta PDF release - yes or no?
Would you like a beta pdf release - yes or no?
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tirsales
post Aug 27 2005, 06:23 PM
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Would you like FanPro to publish a not-at-all-perfect PDF of Sourcebooks to the public? Just like a beta-release in the gaming-industrie.
So you would buy a pdf at battlecorps of which you know that it is not perfect, that there are mistakes, maybe no hyperlinks and so on?
Of course the possibility of later on downloading the correct version with no extra cost is a must-be. (As it is handled actually with battlecorps)

The way I see it, everybody would win with this version. The customers would have the choice whether they would like to wait (as they are doing now) or get the beta and risk errors - which would be corrected later on. And FanPro would get lectors finding mistakes.
The way I see it, you could even publish the beta-pdf FIRST. Before you start printing (first option in the poll). So they could get all those typos and errors corrected and print a nice, correct hardcopy instead of publishing errata :-)
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ShadowGhost
post Aug 27 2005, 06:41 PM
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Battlecorps and Drivethru won't win.... knowing they're going immediately have their bandwidth usage doubled for a known, faulty-soon-to-be-replaced product that EVERYONE is going to download all over again in a few days?

Bandwidth cost money. Why should they lose money because of a bunch of crybaby panty-waist-whine-all-weekend-pussies can't wait until the PDF is finished properly?
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tirsales
post Aug 27 2005, 06:47 PM
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First: Thanks for the insult

Second: Neither bandwith nor traffic are that expensive. And they wouldn't even need to upgrade their bandwith - they would just need a bit more traffic. And BattleCorps for example let's you download a pdf seven times. So they must be calculating with seven downloads per customer and product - that wouldn't change. What *would* change is that more people would buy the pdf - as they would get it earlier. (Why are people buying beta-games? Because they are anxious to get it.)
Btw: I suppose that most customers are already downloading the pdf more than once - either to get those versions with incorporated errata (as already done) or because they have multiple computers. So what would change?

Third: If we are talking about a few days until a redownload would be needed - why does it take so long to publish the correct pdf?
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mintcar
post Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
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I don´t mind waiting for a good product. In fact I see it as a good thing if a company delays a product until it´s the best it can be.

I would like to take Bugie and Bioware as examples of companies with high morals when it comes to things like this. Their games can be delayed for years, but never have I seen a game from either of them be delayed AFTER it´s gone gold and the release date has been set. That´s the problem my friends. A fixed date published with official channels should be concidered a promise. They simply shouldn´t give one until they are absolutely sure to make it. If they want to be concidered a reliable company, that is. Economicly there´s nothing to be gained by being on time, I´ve been told...
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Triggerz
post Aug 27 2005, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (tirsales)
Would you like FanPro to publish a not-at-all-perfect PDF of Sourcebooks to the public? Just like a beta-release in the gaming-industrie.
So you would buy a pdf at battlecorps of which you know that it is not perfect, that there are mistakes, maybe no hyperlinks and so on?
Of course the possibility of later on downloading the correct version with no extra cost is a must-be. (As it is handled actually with battlecorps)

The way I see it, everybody would win with this version. The customers would have the choice whether they would like to wait (as they are doing now) or get the beta and risk errors - which would be corrected later on. And FanPro would get lectors finding mistakes.
The way I see it, you could even publish the beta-pdf FIRST. Before you start printing (first option in the poll). So they could get all those typos and errors corrected and print a nice, correct hardcopy instead of publishing errata :-)

I absolutely agree. After working on a document for a while, you just don't see the mistakes anymore. I guess the material is read by a great many people while in development, but still... The final version - once all the rules have been determined - should be proofread by as many people as possible, and by SR fans, if I may add. Because it's one thing noticing the typos, but if there's a skill somewhere which should be another, for example, only people trying to understand how to play the game are likely to pick that up.

I'd use a PDF to get the system out there to a much larger number of playtesters too before they go and print a few thousand copies of the book. (No idea how many they print.) I mean: in the end, we are the customers; we are the ones playing the game; and if half of us are gonna houserule stuff, then maybe it would be possible to make some further changes to the rules as well before the big investment of printing all those hard copies is made. It would avoid getting stuck with a system that many consider broken on this or that aspect. In the end, they could still go with the "eff u, this is how it's gonna be" attitude, but I think it would allow them to get a much better idea of what we think works fine or not and how we'd fix it and, in the end, it would probably give all of us an even better game.

It's not like they'd lose sales. We'd still buy the PDF, and most of us would probably buy a hard copy as well once all the bugs and typos have been fixed.

Here's a quote from an essay I'm working on at the moment. I thought it applied well to what I was trying to say:

« It may well be that the business model of the Internet-based economy will be epitomized by Cisco Systems. Or, rather, by the ‘global netwroked business model’ that Cisco Systems proposes as the expression of its own business organization and strategy. In the company’s own formulation, this business model is based on three core assumptions : « the relationships a company maintains with its key constituencies can be as much of a competitive differentiator as its core products or services; the manner in which a company shares information and systems is a critical element in the strength of its relationships; being connected is no longer adequate : business relationships and the communications that support them must exist in a ‘networked’ fabric. The global networked business model opens the corporate information structure to all key constituencies, leveraging the network for competitive advantage. » […] Cisco applied to itself the networking logic it was selling to its customers. It organized in/around the Net all relationships with its customers, its suppliers, its partners and its employees, and, through excellent engineering, design, and software, it automated much of the interaction. »

Manuel Castells, The Information Age : Economy, Society and Culture –The Rise of the Network Society (Volume 1) (Basil Blackwell, 1996), p. 180. Quoting Cisco Systems (1999 : 1-2).
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blakkie
post Aug 27 2005, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE
...panty-waist-whine-all-weekend-pussies...


I always thought it was panty-waste-whine-all-weekend-pussies?
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mintcar
post Aug 27 2005, 07:42 PM
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point


you´re wasting it too, though. aren´t you? ;)
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blakkie
post Aug 27 2005, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
point


you´re wasting it too, though. aren´t you? ;)

Panty waste. Waste of panties. Waste of weekend? Nah, just sitting and soaking up the last rays of summer and occationally posting.
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Zen Shooter01
post Aug 27 2005, 08:00 PM
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I like the beta PDF idea a lot.

First, the book would come out when they promised it. Second, it does serve as a proofreading mechanism. Sure, Fan Pro proofreads, but 1,000 pdf buyers will certainly catch more errors than five or ten (I don't know the exact number) Fan Pro employees.
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Grinder
post Aug 27 2005, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
five or ten (I don't know the exact number) Fan Pro employees.

Only Adam? :D

I hope the german version will be better translated & edited than the last sourcebooks.
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blakkie
post Aug 27 2005, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
I like the beta PDF idea a lot.

First, the book would come out when they promised it. Second, it does serve as a proofreading mechanism. Sure, Fan Pro proofreads, but 1,000 pdf buyers will certainly catch more errors than five or ten (I don't know the exact number) Fan Pro employees.

You are looking at the Beta of the book right here. ;) If Triggerz is so hot to start converting characters he should be starting to do that right now. It isn't going to get a whole lot better for the core of PCs when the BBB PDF comes out. The Fanpro conversion suggestions are still an indeterminante amount of time behind that.

Kagetenshi could even start on the PC generator with what we have. I'd be working on a spreadsheet version myself right now if i didn't expect there to be better ones than that out shortly.
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Triggerz
post Aug 27 2005, 08:19 PM
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Well, I've started mentally converting some, but until I can see the PDF, it's still a bit too scattered for me. I don't really expect FanPro's conversion guidelines to be all that useful. Conversion's more art than science. Conversion guidelines from SR2 to SR3 weren't magical and the two systems were much much closer. With SR4, it'll pretty much have to be complete redesigns.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 27 2005, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
Kagetenshi could even start on the PC generator with what we have. I'd be working on a spreadsheet version myself right now if i didn't expect there to be better ones than that out shortly.

I've actually started prototyping already. The design needs to be done with the full and final rules, but we'll have some code fragments to work with by the time the holes are filled in.

~J
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Lady Anaka
post Aug 28 2005, 06:54 PM
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Again, for the record:

FanPro US has 1 employee: Rob Boyle. Just one. Uno. Ein. The Dark Lord on High. Mr. Fix-It. Captain Chaos. That's it.

Everyone else works on a part-time, freelance basis, and most of us have other day jobs. Adam is likely the closest to a full-time assistant, but that's completely dependant on what other obligations he has at the time. FanPro is not his sole client, for all it seems that way sometimes. And, again, he isn't an employee. It is devoutly to be wished that perhaps this next year can rectify this situation and get the lines some additional full-time help, but as of now, that's the way it is.
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Jürgen Hubert
post Aug 28 2005, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (Lady Anaka)
FanPro US has 1 employee: Rob Boyle. Just one. Uno. Ein. The Dark Lord on High. Mr. Fix-It. Captain Chaos. That's it.

I thought Captain Chaos is dead in SR 4E? ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 28 2005, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Lady Anaka)
Again, for the record:

FanPro US has 1 employee: Rob Boyle. Just one. Uno. Ein. The Dark Lord on High. Mr. Fix-It. Captain Chaos. That's it.

Well, yes, but it seems unsporting to lay all the blame at his feet (even when the reasonable conclusion appears to be that that's where it belongs). Hence, I refer to the mysterious entity "FanPro".

~J
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hahnsoo
post Aug 28 2005, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Jürgen Hubert)
QUOTE (Lady Anaka @ Aug 28 2005, 06:54 PM)
FanPro US has 1 employee: Rob Boyle. Just one. Uno. Ein. The Dark Lord on High. Mr. Fix-It. Captain Chaos. That's it.

I thought Captain Chaos ...

Spoiler space! Spoiler space! Use the [ spoiler] tag! That's what it's there for!
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 28 2005, 08:53 PM
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Well, this would explain the delay - Adam has to consult a medium to get the PDF approved by Rob. :wobble:
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Lady Anaka
post Aug 28 2005, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Lady Anaka @ Aug 28 2005, 01:54 PM)
Again, for the record:

FanPro US has 1 employee: Rob Boyle. Just one. Uno. Ein. The Dark Lord on High. Mr. Fix-It. Captain Chaos. That's it.

Well, yes, but it seems unsporting to lay all the blame at his feet (even when the reasonable conclusion appears to be that that's where it belongs). Hence, I refer to the mysterious entity "FanPro".

~J

Understood, and completely fair. Just saw the random mention of FanPro's "ten or twenty" employees somewhere upthread and felt it worth while to mention it again.
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nezumi
post Aug 28 2005, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE
...panty-waist-whine-all-weekend-pussies...


I always thought it was panty-waste-whine-all-weekend-pussies?

I do believe the correct line is panty-waisted-whine-all-weekend-pussies. Although personally, I feel pantiy-waisted goes better with 'idjit' than 'whine-all-weekend', but that's just me.
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CrystalBlue
post Aug 29 2005, 12:34 AM
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[ Spoiler ]
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Shalimar
post Aug 29 2005, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue)
[ Spoiler ]

I prefer to see it as a business continually acting unprofessionally.
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Supercilious
post Aug 29 2005, 05:34 AM
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[ Spoiler ]
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CountZero
post Aug 29 2005, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (Supercilious)
[ Spoiler ]

[ Spoiler ]
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blakkie
post Aug 29 2005, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (Shalimar)
I prefer to see it as a business continually acting unprofessionally.

Jürgen is a business or somehow part of Fanpro?
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