 Katrina, Concern |
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 Sep 2 2005, 03:59 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 29-April 03 Member No.: 4,523  |
The concept of aiming/shooting with intent to kill typically comes with some firearms training, but not everyone has firearms training or even safety training.
If the person was trained in gun safety, would they be firing at the helicopter? Probably not. I would tend to believe that anyone with actual firearms training would never shoot at a helicopter, even in desperation. But that opens up a large number of people ignorant on gun safety and helicopter vulnerability (e.g. children). What's the phrase? "Never attribute to maliciousness that which can adequately be explained by mere stupidity." Is it some punk wanting to play with his gun? Maybe, but the situation I described was an exercise in how desperation can result in crazy behavior. I can understand better that gangs would steal food and water and rape women at gunpoint. I can understand attacking a hospital for medicine or drugs. Both of those have a "benefit" to the shooters/snipers. But I don't see much gain to shooting a rescue helicopter. So I tend to lean away from a malicious reason and lean towards the stupid (looking for fame or practice) or the desperate (looking for help) for helicopter shootings. Incidentally, I'd be interested to know how some folks might try to get out of the situation I outlined above. Light a signal fire? Swim? MacGuyver a boat? Edit: added paragraph about gangs. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:21 AM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I quite frankly do not believe that there exists anyone who is capable of operating a firearm effectively enough to threaten a helicopter, yet so mindbogglingly stupid that they do not understand that shooting at the helicopter puts the helicopter at risk and is unlikely to do anything to encourage the helicopter to help them.
"Punk playing with his gun" I'll believe, but I fail to see how that doesn't qualify as "malicious". |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:25 AM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
One does not need to actually be a threat to a helicopter to make the operator feel threatened.
~J |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:29 AM
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#54
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
jhsiao, if you don't have any firearms safety training, formal or otherwise, you have no FREAKING right firing a weapon.
And I'd first try to light a signal fire, or launch a flare if I had one (You can buy a flare pistol for about 20 bucks at Wal Mart in their boating section, and a pack of extre flares costs about 8 bucks.) Second to that would be MacGuyvering a boat. Failing that, and assuming I have the gun you mentioned, I swim for it, trying to stay in the water as little as possible, and making my way from rooftop to rooftop to safety. I employ my firearm to kill as many dangerous animals as possible. ('gators, those really poisonous snakes, etcetera.) |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:31 AM
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#55
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
And of course, one stray shot can headshot the pilot, killing the whole chopper and anyone below it.
"Never attribute to malice..." only works when there actually isen't any malice afoot. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:37 AM
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#56
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The untrained are the entire reason firearms were invented. ~J |
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Sep 2 2005, 11:26 AM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
And of course, those trained, with a responsible attitude toward the gun, and with full knowledge of what that gun is capable of doing are the ONLY people in the United States with the right to bear arms. Which constitutional amendment was that again?
(Does anyone have access to that SR2 BBB quote by Governor Schultz, something to the effect of nothing being wrong in Seattle that a few thousand troops can't fix?) |
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Sep 2 2005, 11:29 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
If you are a "Benefiting" from the disorder, than discouraging the restoration of order would be beneficial as well wouldn't it?
intentional and malicious would very well fit, if that was the case. |
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Sep 2 2005, 11:35 AM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, well that celebrating Afgan wedding party was apparently shooting at those USAF fighter jets too before they were bombed to hell and back. :S Sometimes observation mistakes are made, and when you hear/see gunshots is it damn unnerving. *shrug* EDIT: This of course does not preclude the very real possibility of truth of any given report of a chopper being shot, for whatever reason. Attention, anger, sun boiled brain, just general dumbass, etc. |
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Sep 2 2005, 12:18 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
FIY, Martial Law HAS been declared in New Orleans. Here's a quote from Governor Kathleen Blanco:
Gov. Kathleen Blanco called the looters "hoodlums" and issued a warning to lawbreakers: Hundreds of National Guard troops hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans. "They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." Also, the USS Harry S. Truman is on it's way with an assload of Marines. And keep your eyes on the Baton Rouge news, especially www.theadvocate.com. I had my picture taken by a news photographer yesterday as I picked up a new 12 gauge and some slugs at a local firearms store that was PACKED. Took me 3 hours to get in, get the shotgun, and checkout. |
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Sep 2 2005, 12:42 PM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 1-October 03 Member No.: 5,668 |
Murdering assholes or not, does it worry anyone that America is turning her troops against American citizens?
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Sep 2 2005, 01:06 PM
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#62
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I would like to think that the governor's comments were a result of extreme stress and righteous indignation at an untennable situation. The lawlesness is not appropriate and should be dealt with, but I hope the troops have a great deal of restraint if attacked. That being said, if they are attacked they should use any means appropriate and necessary to respond and subdue the attackers. Really, who in their right mind is going to try and take pot shots at a squad of combat vets? |
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Sep 2 2005, 01:26 PM
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#63
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
right now? anyone that dont want to go back to the "old" times...
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Sep 2 2005, 01:47 PM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 29-April 03 Member No.: 4,523 |
Uh...Somalis, Talibanis, Baathists, terrorists...the list goes on. Granted, I think these folks probably value their lives less (or value American deaths more) than the shooters in NO, but the chance of retaliation in NO is so much less. No UAVs, no air support, no armor, no intel, all in a purely defensive position. Are troops going to wade into the waters to flush out a den of shooters? Are troops going to call in an airstrike in a US city to take out a sniper? Would you say the risk of collateral (and political) damage is higher conducting combat operations off the French Quarter versus say Mosul? People will either look at anarchy as an opportunity or as a menace. Reminds me of a question posed by my brother after Hurricane Andrew: "If you knew for certain that you would never be punished or caught, would you loot?" Without hesitation, I said no, but before people start going "I would never steal anything because I can", just think of the justifications given for music/software piracy (e.g. not enough money, just want to try it out, the companies are rich anyway). And these justifications are much weaker than the ones that can be claimed in NO (survival). Even though there is a definite demarcation between people's moralities in the physical world vs. the online world, the online world is effectively anarchy. In some instances, some folks pirate just because they can--just like those folks in NO who are looting big screen TVs (what are you gonna do with that without electricity?). Likely the feelings most of us have against these gangs/anarchists reflect the feelings most people in the SR world have against runners. Perhaps people can take their rage against the looters in NO and better roleplay Lone Star or corporate security or corporate hackers. Because as runners, you're taking shots at the equivalent of hospitals or law-abiding people or stealing private property. |
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Sep 2 2005, 02:17 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That assumes all people having a right mind under very stressful situations. Same can be said about looting for food & water. As the precieved chance of living or dieing rises you are going to see the levels of value people put on the morales of theft. Especially when you start getting "i'm just borrowing, i intend to pay back" or "this stuff is gonna go to waste anyway" or the highly dubious but always popular "he's doing it, if i don't get me some it's all gone anyway". |
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Sep 2 2005, 02:23 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Just to throw a little more kindling on the fire, according to Canadian and British news outlets (I think CNN may have also picked it up), some of the troops being stationed in New Orleans have just returned from Iraq.
The combination of A) shellshocked troops fresh from an urban warzone and B) the starving poor of New Orleans has me waiting for the first report of a panicked National Guard soldier firing into a desperate crowd. |
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Sep 2 2005, 02:29 PM
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#67
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
It is a real mess down there, and it's sad. Obviously, it's no direct parallel to any events in Shadowrun, but it's close enough to be tragic. Something like the scene in New Orleans would have been something I'd have written as fiction before. It's not really fiction now.
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Sep 2 2005, 02:29 PM
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#68
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
TheOneRonin's quote of the Govennor mentions that too. I don't know, i'm thinking i'd rather have experience than green in there and trust that the extra little bit of caution that they'll have knowing it is a fellow countryman at the end of the barrel will be enough.
It has always been, over the long run, a high probability senario for a huge hurricane to landfall there. A bit weaker one and the leeves might have been able to hold, but cat 5 hurricanes do happen in the Gulf with a scary regularity. |
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Sep 2 2005, 02:53 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Incidently, the levees around New Orleans were only rated for Cat 3 hurricanes and below.
And a little bit on the National Guard guys coming here from Iraq. I served in the Guard (MechInf) and I've been deployed. The worst thing you can tell a soldier after he's just gotten orders to come home is that he can't ACTUALLY come home, but instead he's got to deal with people looting and causing havok in a flooded out city that he might not have ever even been too. His disdain for these looters will actually be much worse than whatever he felt towards the insurgents in Iraq. That will play a VERY heavy role in how these guys actually respond to whatever goes on once they are here. And it won't be pretty. |
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Sep 2 2005, 03:04 PM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I landfell at Cat 4 though, right? I thought it had slowed up a few hours before the core of it hit? It's hard for a hurricane to maintain top form when it starts passing over land of any significant size (as opposed to some poor little island).
So they are coming in without any downtime? Er, if so ya that could be a bad scene. Especially with the folks that had their time overseas greatly extended. Have supplies started coming into your area? Or are their road problems yet? |
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Sep 2 2005, 03:11 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Yeah, Katrina was a Cat 4 when it hit, but that's still over what the levees have been rated for. And it wasn't long on lad before it dropped to a Cat 3, but it was just long enough.
From what I have heard, yeah, these guys are being pulled straight from Iraq. No downtime whatsoever. I can't comment on supplies, but the roads here (Baton Rouge) are beyond capacity. Since we are the nearest functional metropolitan area to New Orleans, we are playing host to most of the refugees...and not only people from New Orleans, but the surrounding areas like Mandeville and Slidell. In fact, many of those people are coming into Baton Rouge for gasoline, food, and supplies, then heading out back to their homes. I haven't gotten any word of any shortages yet, but we are just about the only place you can find gasoline within 60 miles west of New Orleans. |
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Sep 2 2005, 03:56 PM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 1-October 03 Member No.: 5,668 |
Kent State anyone? I believe that anyone who attacks armed troops deserves what they get, but the governor’s quotes are worrisome. While I am all for stopping the anarchy and getting the refugees out, I think we should all watch this very carefully. This has the possibility of setting some bad precedents when it comes to using the US military in times of crisis. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:05 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
At this point, I see a shoot-to-kill order on the charming folks trotting down the streets with TVs in their arms as almost reasonable. Do I like it? No. I'd rather not see Americans gunning down other Americans. But with the predatory gangs roaming the city and the insane looting, would I rather there be rape victims and burned-out/cleaned-out stores or dead rapists and looters?
Gotta go with the latter on that one... EDIT: And it's official, I'm just not that bright. Fixed the statement to read correctly. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:14 PM
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#74
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Let me get this straight, you'd rather there be rapists and looters than people stopping rapists and looters? Just checking. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:15 PM
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#75
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Maybe you should head on down to NO with a shopping cart full of beer and cigarettes in a skirt and see if you change your mind...
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