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> First 4ed run, So far. . .
wagnern
post Aug 29 2005, 01:57 PM
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Friday we ran our first sesion with the 4th ed rules. Admitatly, it was a simple adventure with a light conflict, but all went well. I was able to take out two goons with a Light pistol, the Decker was able to realy mess up their day by locking the doors of their car and other tricks. The mage was able to get the runaway with a spirit.

All in all our first sesion worked great. We were all able to make our charictors match our consept quite well, Combat moved swiftly as we got a hang of the rules.

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Spookymonster
post Aug 29 2005, 02:17 PM
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Session.
Admittedly.
Really.
Session.
Characters.
Concept.

Sorry, but it's monday morning. I don't like Mondays.

Glad your run went well!
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mmu1
post Aug 29 2005, 02:20 PM
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I'm glad your session went well, but... hacking car door locks? Bleh.

To me, that sort of stuff doesn't feel like deckers/hackers taking advantage of existing technology to do new and interesting things, but rather as if the technology was placed there (for no practical reason) simply to let deckers do cool stuff without needing to get jacked in.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 29 2005, 02:29 PM
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That already was perfectly possible in SR3... given a load of (head)ware, and well-designed programs to operate in tortoise mode.

Every 'normal' vehicle has an active transponder/cellphone which allows remote diagnosis and management via onboard computer - like hacking the telecom of a flat, therefore allowing control over the security system, too.

Wireless matrix was already there, too - there were mobile phone modules for decks in Matrix SB, allowing hot ASIST over the cellular network... even via the cellular satellite service, whereas augmented reality was sported first time in SotA with its LinkClubs.

It was just less integrated and... clunky. ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 29 2005, 02:30 PM
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If by "clunky" you mean "made sense", yes.

~J
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 29 2005, 02:33 PM
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As english is not my native language, I must excuse my obvious lack of ability to express my perspective correctly - by 'clunky' I mean 'a leaping heap of crap' - stylewise and ruleswise. ;)

Whether it 'made sense'... well, in my opinion no, it didn't - the technology of SR3 was awkward mix of entirely different techlevels, to borrow this TT of GURPS...
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 29 2005, 02:42 PM
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As opposed to now, when wireless is everywhere but no one has figured out that exchanging public keys with your car is a good way to make sure that people don't hack the doors shut? (Apply to other wireless interaction as desired)

~J
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 29 2005, 02:49 PM
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As it was childs play to break even the most advanced matrix and data encryptions in SR3 whereas it was nearly impossible to break even a midclass com-encryption, my guess is that even there SR4 represents an improvement, while retaining the point of being playable - which, I would suppose, is an interesting factor in a RPG, too... being able to do cool stuff and have fun. 8)
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hobgoblin
post Aug 29 2005, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
As opposed to now, when wireless is everywhere but no one has figured out that exchanging public keys with your car is a good way to make sure that people don't hack the doors shut? (Apply to other wireless interaction as desired)

and while your at it just remove the hacker as a playable char.
basicly RL computer crime is boring compared to the cyberpunk way :cyber:

allso, whos to say that this isnt the default? but that there are flaws in the protocol (see WEP for current gen WIFI) and so on? to much detail can be a bad thing :silly:
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 29 2005, 04:32 PM
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This has been hashed out in other threads. Weaknesses in current wireless encryption only exist because of the desire for cheap hardware (and ease-of-use). If we're making systems near-arbitrarily powerful (or even much more powerful than today's systems), there's no excuse for it.

It's true that realistically difficult-to-break security is boring, but that's no reason for "OMFG I can haxxor his car!!1!"

~J
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 29 2005, 04:38 PM
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One can easily say, that this is the reason.

The main difference between SR3 an SR4 in that respect is, as stated, not the difficulty.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 29 2005, 04:57 PM
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Just as side note: There are two ways you can try to hack into a particular system, either the brute force method (which takes a few combat turns at most, but is much more likely to trigger an alert) or a slow methodical method (which takes minutes to hours, probing for weaknesses, but you are much less likely to trigger an alert). I think that's a major improvement in the hacking rules.
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Demonseed Elite
post Aug 29 2005, 05:12 PM
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Yeah, I just made a few posts over on the Matrix thread about this. There are some considerations in the SR4 rules which can make stuff like hacking cars harder.

How heavily these considerations are enforced is up to the GM. Some groups will prefer a more "Wild West" hacking universe, where devices are more vulnerable to hackers. Some won't like that, like my own personal tastes.
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wagnern
post Aug 29 2005, 05:36 PM
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Mostly, he hacked the truck and locked the doors so he could try out the hacking rules. Besides, they were not profesionals or anything, just some thugs who were wanting to jump one of our friends (something about a party and a girlfriend . . .) So they were not set up to deal with profesional runners. (This of corse scared me and I am going to see if I can bribe our Decker to secure my car a little better. I'm thinking a six pack of his favorite beer should do it, I'll pay for any parts of corse.)

PS to me it makes sence that someone could use the car's computer to lock the doors (in the future) Just think today, we have cars that lock and unlock remotly, lock whenever the car is placed in gear, won't lock if the key is in the ignition and the car is out of gear, kill switches to turn a car off remotly if it is stolen (that by the way is the function our Decker activated. Killed the fuel pump, locked the doors. He had 15 minutes or so to do this as they waited outside of the Ihop for us.)
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blakkie
post Aug 29 2005, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
As english is not my native language, I must excuse my obvious lack of ability to express my perspective correctly - by 'clunky' I mean 'a leaping heap of crap' - stylewise and ruleswise. ;)

Think having metal ducting tubes for pant legs, like the Tinman in Wizard of Oz. :) Best word match is 'awkward'.
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Pugwhan
post Aug 29 2005, 06:00 PM
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What doesn't make sense to me is why do common people have up to date cars and things. If the timeline has jumped 10 years. How recently did cars with all this wireless stuff come on the market? What about houses? Look around how many 2005 cars do you see on the road? How many cars do you see that are more than 10 years old? This full tech jump doesn't make sense to me..
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Spookymonster
post Aug 29 2005, 06:20 PM
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One of the tenets of the Cyberpunk genre is technology advancing faster than humankind's ability to understand. Those who adapt first do so out of necessity or to exploit an advantage over everyone else.

Compare this to the Transhuman/Singularity genre conceit of mankind's unquestioning acceptance of technology beyond its ken.

[edit]
Oh, and if you don't think the SR universe is moving too fast, I suggest you don't read Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. Released in 1992, the book takes place in the alternate 'future' of LA of the early '00s, IIRC.
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Connor
post Aug 29 2005, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (wagnern)
PS to me it makes sence that someone could use the car's computer to lock the doors (in the future) Just think today, we have cars that lock and unlock remotly, lock whenever the car is placed in gear, won't lock if the key is in the ignition and the car is out of gear, kill switches to turn a car off remotly if it is stolen (that by the way is the function our Decker activated. Killed the fuel pump, locked the doors. He had 15 minutes or so to do this as they waited outside of the Ihop for us.)

And not just your standard remote keyless entry stuff and the like. Think OnStar for instance. They can track the car, unlock the car, probably even start or stop the car. So, it's not that far of a stretch to see that something like that is hackable.
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Demonseed Elite
post Aug 29 2005, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Connor)
QUOTE (wagnern @ Aug 29 2005, 12:36 PM)
PS  to me it makes sence that someone could use the car's computer to lock the doors (in the future)  Just think today, we have cars that lock and unlock remotly, lock whenever the car is placed in gear, won't lock if the key is in the ignition and the car is out of gear, kill switches to turn a car off remotly if it is stolen  (that by the way is the function our Decker activated.  Killed the fuel pump, locked the doors.  He had 15 minutes or so to do this as they waited outside of the Ihop for us.)

And not just your standard remote keyless entry stuff and the like. Think OnStar for instance. They can track the car, unlock the car, probably even start or stop the car. So, it's not that far of a stretch to see that something like that is hackable.

Absolutely, but remember that those devices (both the owner's commlink or whatever he uses to remote access his car and the OnStar equivalent) likely use dedicated passkeys. If your hacker doesn't have that dedicated passkey, he has to try a much more difficult route.

Now, if he wants to go through OnStar's host, getting access to the car would be easy. But getting access to OnStar's host probably won't be.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 29 2005, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
This has been hashed out in other threads. Weaknesses in current wireless encryption only exist because of the desire for cheap hardware (and ease-of-use). If we're making systems near-arbitrarily powerful (or even much more powerful than today's systems), there's no excuse for it.

It's true that realistically difficult-to-break security is boring, but that's no reason for "OMFG I can haxxor his car!!1!"

~J

well it depends a good deal on playing style. i play rpgs to get away from real life, not simulate it down to the last decimal. and i prefer cyberpunk over fantasy, but the mix that SR have is just perfect ;)

and whos to say that SR's megacorps are even more lazy when it comes to civilian of-the-shelf electronics. in the we dont have to care, we are the phone company kinda way ;)

and most security problems today come for users not being admin trained ;)
there are a whole lot of wide open wifi spots out there as people dont care to even try to config any kind of security. about the only thing that will scare them to do so in the future is if their insurance policy skyrockets unless they do something with their security (or if their eqipment actualy gets broken into, but even then their reaction will most likely be more panic then effective). and then they most likely will not do any more then the base requirement to keep the insurance company happy.

bottom line, people are lazy and willfully ignorant :P

and while that kind of humans outnumber the other kind stuff like car hacks will happen ;)
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tirsales
post Aug 29 2005, 07:38 PM
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To be exact ... The whole Encryption in Shadowrun is just laughable.
I mean, there are better encryption systems existing just now... And they are not even SOTA ...
But: This doesn't hinder the game being coool
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 29 2005, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Aug 29 2005, 01:20 PM)
Oh, and if you don't think the SR universe is moving too fast, I suggest you don't read Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. Released in 1992, the book takes place in the alternate 'future' of LA of the early '00s, IIRC.

To be fair, Snow Crash also features a main character named Hiro Protagonist. I at least am willing to accept unreality more in a clearly nonserious setting.

Hobgoblin: a little bit of unreality is ok, but this is a case of disbelief being hanged by the neck until dead.

~J
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hobgoblin
post Aug 29 2005, 09:22 PM
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your view, not mine.
so lets agree to disagree as i fear we will have this discussion over and over in threads about computers all over this forum (and allready have).
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mintcar
post Aug 29 2005, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (Pugwhan)
What doesn't make sense to me is why do common people have up to date cars and things. If the timeline has jumped 10 years. How recently did cars with all this wireless stuff come on the market? What about houses? Look around how many 2005 cars do you see on the road? How many cars do you see that are more than 10 years old? This full tech jump doesn't make sense to me..

Not a tech jump. Shadowrun cars have always been computerized. You don´t even have to drive them yourself gridguide does it for you. Updating to the new matrix is likely a small thing that has bennefits your regular wageslave can not be without. "what? matrix is out and I have to drive the car MYSELF unless I get the 2.0 version?"
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Nerbert
post Aug 29 2005, 09:46 PM
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This brings me to something I've wondered for a long time. The way I was reading the rules I decided that cars that could be driven without a datajack were no longer made. How accurate is this? Should a mage with no cyberware be able to jump in a random car and get where he's going or are cars with manual controls fantastically rare? Do you always need to jack in to drive?

This is not a question about rigging. This is a question about everyone else.
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