 Search power, broken |
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 Aug 31 2005, 07:38 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
Search power (Watchers, Spirits of the Air . . .)
Works if the summoner can provide a mental image (text says nothing about astral perception or signature, only image needed) Magic + Intuition (- barrier rating; - shroud power) [5 + kilometers, 10 Minutes] Average time for a force 3 Air Spririt to find somebody X kilometers away: x/12 hours + 25 minutes (6/2 = 2 hits per 10 Minutes) Do barriers help? Only if you eliminate ALL the spirits dice. If you dont, it just takes longer (and bound spririts have unlimited time). You need a mana barrier/ warden of force 10 to eliminate all the diace of a force 5 air spirit. Who thinks he is still safe ? |
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Aug 31 2005, 07:46 PM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
But the less dice the spirit has, the more likely it will glitch (remove hits) or critical glitch (automatic failure). This is one situation where as a GM, I'd force the "rolls limited to number of dice rolled" rule for Extended tests. Also, Watchers only get 2 dice total for the Search power.
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Aug 31 2005, 08:26 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
With the "rolls limited to number of dice" rule, the watchers can not find anything, as they could only have 4 hits.
But it would effectivle reduce the average search distance of a force X spirit to [(X*2)^2]/2 - 5 kilometers aka 31 kilometers for force 3 spirit 95 kilometers for firce 5 still too much for my taste. I had more like 5 Kilometers max distance in mind to make it consistent with the shadowrun world. My house rule: - only possible with signature - test: magic + intuition (2, 10 mintes) - only number of dice rolls +1 treshhold for every 100 meters above 1 kilometer watcher tracking rate: 50% if in 1 km radius 4 kilometers for force 3 spirit 10 kilometers for force 5 spirit |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:29 PM
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#4
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
my question is, can a bound spirit of the air search inside houses and so on? are they still limited by domains?
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Aug 31 2005, 08:33 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
good point. I was searchin for this but have not found it. ill check back as soon as I am sure.
edit: nope, no restrictions. btw, even earth, water and spirits of man have the search power . . . |
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Sep 24 2005, 05:16 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
That's weird and broken. I'd personally want to fix it by saying that "Watchers act as force 4 spirits for the purpose of search tests." |
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Sep 24 2005, 06:39 PM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The when and how many limit of rolls on Extended Tests is entirely under GM providence, and the rolls limited to dice in pool is given as one of multiple options. |
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Sep 24 2005, 06:39 PM
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#8
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Hmm.... does that mean Searching is a Remote Service as the spirit must leave the maximal distance?
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Sep 25 2005, 12:32 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Yes, it would imply that. Of course if the spirit is bound it doesn't matter that much.
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Sep 25 2005, 02:50 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
Rules should be at least vaguely consistant, and in this case A.) Any spirit can find anyone anywhere given no cap on the extended test. B.) Given any of the limiting options, a force 4 spirit can find anyone within 50 miles but a watcher can never find anyone. Since finding stuff is one of the signature abilities of watchers BUT letting random spirits always be able to find anyone isn't a good thing, and given that with the guidlines about limiting extended tests it's impossible to solve both of these without being inconsitant, it'd be best to think about what the (nessisary) house rule would be before the situation came up. What a game master's rulings are going to be for the limits on extended tests is an issue that it's important to be decisive and consistant on - in many cases it defines the basic properties of the game setting. In this case, the difference between "Watchers can always find anyone given time" and "Watchers can't use their search power at all." is *huge* from a game world perspective. Other important examples include the decrypt program while hacking. |
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Sep 25 2005, 03:30 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
My House Rules:
Extended test: Magic + Intuition (Distance in Kilometers, 10 minutes) Only "Magic" rolls. Whatchers can only find people who are no more than 2.4 km (round down to 2) away. On the average they find people 1 km away. A force 3 spirit can roll 3+3 dice 3 times = 12 dice = 4 hits = average 4 km search range. A force 6 spirit can roll 6+6 dice 6 times = 72 dice = 24 hits 0 average of 24 km search radius A force 12 spirit can rol 12+12 dice 12 times = 288 dice = 96 hits = average of 96 km search radius If you want to find someone you know is hiding somehwere near use a watcher. |
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Sep 25 2005, 04:31 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Chandon, the point is that the GM is given any particular option they feel appropriate for the given situation.
So why not just put a blanket time limit on the Search power, something like 40 minutes/service (so 4 rolls)? Allow the spirit to continue the same Extended Test when moving from one service to the next. IC explaination: Searching is hard work, and any semi-intellegent spirit won't put up with it for more than 40 minutes. The lesser spirits like Watchers just flat out lose interest is the task or it slips their mind after 40 minutes. ;) It's simple. It allows Watchers to search a good sized neigborhood if they owe you more than 1 service. It also keeps spirits over Force 6 from being able to casually search entire states, especially since it is harder to get multiple services from them. However the higer Force spirits still have the advantage in the case of someone that is working very hard at hiding. P.S. If you only provide a meat description, not an astral description, won't your spirit have to wander around manifesting (and whatever that may lead to :vegm:) or they'll have to deal with penalties of trying to discern through the fog of viewing from the astral? Working off the meat description also would seem to have the drawback that they'll have to deal with attempting to see through mundane disguses? Even Illusions could be somewhat of an issue, though the Spirit should at least know when they are dealing with a potential find that has a spell on them as they are very likely to notice the presense of the spell aura. |
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Sep 25 2005, 03:16 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
I have an idea: Rather than using the tools that have been given to us in the rulebook, let's come up with random house rules that don't even look like something from the BBB. If we can come up with enough of them quick enough, people who have been playing SR4 with other game masters won't even recognise we're running the same game. |
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Sep 25 2005, 03:34 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
How about we recognize the rule that is in the rulebook. The GM can set it to whatever limit she thinks is best to assume that if they haved done it by then they "simply don’t have the skills to complete it". :P |
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Sep 25 2005, 06:04 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Let Watchers get away with a higher limit, since finding people is one of their main uses.
Or interpret the rules so that a watcher can search anywhere, but the other spirits have to stay in 'their' domain. |
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Sep 25 2005, 08:31 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
That would be perfect. That fits exactly with the flavor of sprits set in the previous editions of Shadowrun. I just wish it had been even vaguely hinted at in the SR4 rulebook. |
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Sep 25 2005, 11:52 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
then waht exactly is the domain of spirit of man, spirit of beast, spirit of fire and spirit of earth. And is the domain of a spirit of air everywhere where air is ?
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Sep 26 2005, 02:04 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
Just off the cuff...
Spirits of Man: Anywhere there is a significant pressence of metahumanity and the interconnectivity of civilization. A town would be the Domain of Man, but the cabin of a hermit who wants nothing to do with his race wouldn't. Spirits of Beasts: Anywhere there is a significant pressence of non-metahuman complex life and the interconnectivity of a viable ecosystem. Amazonian rainforest would be the Domain of Beasts, but a zoo wouldn't. Spirits of Fire: Anywhere near a major source of heat, from a furnace to a nuclear reactor (though mind the whole Toxicity thing...) Spirits of Earth: Anywhere where the natural Earth is laid bare (expansive, but not terribly useful for your average Urban runner). Spirits of Air: Anywhere under a large enough open sky you can see the horizon. |
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Feb 2 2006, 04:58 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Someone brought this up again. This equation is wrong, because the base TN is 5, not 4. The real equation is: [(N)^2]/3 - 5 kilometers Where N is Forcex2 plus/minus dicepool modifiers. So anyone with no mana barriers or concealment can be found by a Force 3 spirit 7 kilometers away, and by a Force 5 spirit 28 kilometers away. That's still a damn long way, but it's nowhere near the lofty numbers that this thread was taking as its standard. -Frank |
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Feb 2 2006, 05:03 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
True. Even the numbers dont fit to the wrong formula. Don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, I still like my house rule (where the math is right).
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