 Low Power Level, Difficult to increase |
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 Sep 1 2005, 09:51 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741  |
Yeah, but looking at the Threshholds, it's like SR3 where a high powered campaign required a partial rewrite of the TNs in some cases. Unlike SR3, you can't stick enough official modifiers on something to give a guy with 20 dice to roll a challenge at simple tasks (such as, surviving falling 120 feet).
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Sep 2 2005, 12:11 AM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If you want to increase the difference between different numbers more, but don't want to go as far as giving out hits on a 4, give back the rule of six. With the rule of six active, a die scores .4 hits on average, which makes rolling more dice a bigger deal. Note that this also makes armor a little less asstastic.
-Frank |
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Sep 2 2005, 12:53 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 22-August 05 Member No.: 7,587 |
I believe the max amount of BP which can go into positive qualities is 35. So, if I'm remembering correctly, you can get Aptitude and Lucky, but not Exceptional Attribute and Lucky. (And then, 5 BP left!) |
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Sep 2 2005, 12:58 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 5-March 03 From: Wouldn't you like to know? Member No.: 4,203 |
This is why pen and paper games are great. If you don't like the rules change them. I had no problem at all with the attrib/skill caps I just ignored them its that simple. The rules are not written in stone just printed on expensive paper make the game work the way you want it to.
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Sep 2 2005, 01:12 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
D.G., a game system shouldn't require being taken back to pretest just to change a few problems that should be minor or even just up its power level.
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Sep 2 2005, 03:06 AM
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#31
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Hehe. Actually, the "low power level" approach is on my (very short) list of things that I like about 4e so far. :cyber:
Prob still won't buy it. |
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Sep 2 2005, 06:32 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
look at the bright side. now, there really is only one way to play SR.
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Sep 2 2005, 06:34 AM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Best of all, when you do enough making it work the way you want you can skip buying the expensive paper at all! ~J |
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Sep 2 2005, 08:30 AM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
If you want your characters to be more "high powered" just use 3rd edition skill examples and go up to 500 BP's. That way you can get skills of 12 ;) I also suggest removing any artifical caps on dice based on game balance. I mean muscle toner 4 works on a agil 3 human but not a agil 6? I can understand diminishing returns, but that can be compensated for by upping the essence cost of the last few points to show that it takes more "toner" to get that agil of 10 than it does to go from 3 to 4.
But I will say that with the game at street level and 400 BP's a lot more people will be taking Exc Att and skill. Especially in my game when they were NEVER allowed in 3rd edition because they were far too munchy. Now, to be "one of the best" those 2 "positive qualities" are basically required. I like the Sr4 system so far, but the OP is correct, as written it is not playable in a heroic setting. You can not run harlquin's back with a group of sr4 starting characters, even with 50 or 75 karma. They would just die too fast. Now if the game modules take this into account thats kewl, but who would pay for a brainscan type game module if your knocking off the city's mob boss or some random mid-level AAA johnson. Because those are the "heroic" encounters for Sr4 starting characters. |
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Sep 2 2005, 08:36 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Doesn't work. You also have to regear the dice system in some way to take account. Plus, you also have the problem of not knowing exactly how that will affect the game without extensive testing. It could unbalance the game completely.
Pretty much, yeah.
I question if they can survive my typical first run, something that was only challenging under SR3. Mainly because they deal with an experienced shaman who doesn't pull his punches, and in this version he's able to throw a lot more weight behind those fists. |
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Sep 2 2005, 08:47 AM
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#36
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I would hope they would survive the same way SR3 characters would survive - by being smart, hedging their bets, stacking the deck, doing their legwork, and never letting dice decide anything that can be accomplished with sufficient planning.
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Sep 2 2005, 09:06 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Sufficient planning never makes up for the hellhound behind the door and the shaman opening up with Force 8 fireballs. Only, now, it'll be likely Force 16.
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Sep 2 2005, 09:08 AM
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#38
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ah right, i missed both those being 20 pointers. I looked to see if they explicitly stated they were mutually exclusive because i expected them to be, they were craftily made so by there BP cost. Tricky bastages. [EDIT: Though upon review of page 264, buying Qualities post chargen i think you might still be able to do it there, under strict GM supervision, and with a somewhat generous interpretation that the BP limit is only chargen since you are using karma and it also requires special dedication, you know like becoming a legend is suppose to.] So yah, you get to pick one or the other plus the extra skill point somewhere. Although in this particular case Code Slinger or Home Turf:Shadowland might make more sense than the extra skill point, they having given Fastjack as an example of a Skill 7 aside. P.S. Like i said earlier, this doesn't give you as much room as i think it should you should post-chargen. If there was a place i'd where i'd make room to grow it's with the Exceptional Attribute/Lucky. Allow unlimited post-chargen purchase and make them stack on a give Attribute. So not remove the caps, just make them more like Magic in that you can spend ungodly [EDIT: or should that be godly?] amounts of karma to buy them up. |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:27 AM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
Well yes, my group is damn good at what you suggest *see my sig 8) * But, part of SR is combat, and things always seem to go downhill at some point. Its more fun that way... sometimes ;) Most if not all 1-3 edition book adventures are unplayable for starting Sr4 characters. Simply because they are street and not heroic level characters. You don't send them into the arcology and they don't run bug city. They will just die to the first group of red sam/bug spirits they run into, unless you reduce the power of the foe's greatly. In 3rd edition that red sam might have a skill of 8, but your skill of 6 was enough if you played smart. Now, they are simply rolling more dice than you on an opposed test, and if you give them edge, well then your PC's edge is gone :( And if you don't then its like not giving primary opposition karma pool, the PC's almost always win the tests they want to with karma. And the challenge and "death" threat is gone. Finally, if you want a higher power campaign, you have to up the starting money. In 3rd edition you could make a GREAT sammy for 400k, and a 600~800k ware sammy was scary. But unless you took an expensive toy(laser/ruth. suit/maglock passkey) you ran out of essence before you ran out of cash. Now, 250k is much more of a limiting factor. 500k total for a prime runner and avail. of at least 20 is necessary, to me at least. As always YMMV. |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:48 AM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
and? believe it or not that is realistic as 14-17 is the preferred range for modern crime bosses to hire deniable assets from... it is only a matter of time until the corps catch on |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:10 AM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well it's where you want to identify your awakened/techno prospects by, before they go off and do something stupid like get that Mr. Stubby cyber implant. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:55 PM
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#42
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Exceptional Attribute only works for Physical and Mental attributes. It says so right there in the quality description.
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Sep 2 2005, 05:00 PM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Responding to? I can't see anything in my post this refers to, but i can't find it elsewhere either? |
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Sep 2 2005, 07:16 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
Having read the rules more. Am thinking to start with I am going to remove the hard cap on augmented attributes. Skills and natural attributes I am going to leave as normal right now until some of my players start bumping up against the hard caps. At that point I am hoping I will have a better understanding of what can and can not be changed. Do agree that most of the available printed runs are going to have to be ignored till much later in the game. I know there are many people who play Shadowrun who enjoy the lower level power games but there are just as many who enjoy the heroic level games and Fanpro's suggestion on how to up the power level does not work if you intend to use the rules as written. disappointing because the rules do play well if your willing to play to the power level Fanpro has chosen.
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