Possible "Shiawase Decision" type incident...

Possible "Shiawase Decision" type incident..., In the aftermath of Katrina...

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Shadow

Sep 2 2005, 10:37 PM

Post #51

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM)

So, no matter what, there is always going to be a qualification, always going to be an exception, always going to be a case where you may not like it, but it's acceptable. Don't like it? Too bad. Reality doesn't care if you like it.

Tell me the moral justification for raping a woman in a flooded city where people are starving to death? I am really interested to know in what situation this would be okay?

QUOTE (superlicious)

I am 16, but locking people in the city IS WHY THEY ARE FUCKING LOOTERS!

If they let everyone who wanted to leave, then they could shoot-to-kill looters, and I would not mind.

But if it came down to starving, or breaking into a wal-mart, I would be stealing in a second. And after I stole the food, why not get a nice, free nest egg? What is my motivation not to steal? This is a total clusterfuck and the government (State, Local, and Federal) fucked this up big.

There is no reason compelling enough to warrant the death and disease and misery that it justifies locking everyone into the city.

Superlicious,

No one was told they couldn't leave NO. They have been evacuating the city for over a week. But once the storm hit people were told to go to certain places during the storm so that they wouldn't be killed outside while trying to leave. After the flood hit it became impossible for them to leave.

No one told the people of NO to stay in their homes. I don't know where you got that idea, other than confusing what people were actually told.

Supercilious

Sep 2 2005, 10:43 PM

Post #52

Moving Target

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QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Sep 2 2005, 08:32 AM)

There are some things that I think you are missing, Superlicious.

First off, the order to evacuate New Orleans was sent down the pipe with short notice, but most people were actually able to get out. Many of those that weren't able to evacuate were able to find shelter in the superdome and the civic center. Granted, some people weren't even able to make it there. And many of those people have already been rescued. However, you have a rather large group of people who didn't leave or take shelter because they were too stupid/poor/lazy to do so. It is THIS group that is causing trouble.

The NOPD and rescue workers have not had problems with people looting food and supplies. Those people, when found, are being rescued. The problem is with people stealing things like TVs and such, and with them committing violence against other trapped people/cops/rescue workers.

The government has NOT abandoned the people of New Orleans. My company, working very closely with FEMA, the cops, and all levels of city, parish, state, and federal agencies, has been working around the clock for 5 days straight trying to help people. The New Orleans Mayor himself has been out there, without sleep, without AC, doing what he can to help. Despite what you might be hearing, everyone is working to HELP the people of New Orleans, not shoot at them.

However, some people out there aren't helping the situation. They are shooting at police and rescue workers, they are robbing/raping/looting other poor, destitue familes that are stuck out there, and many of those same types of people have made it out of New Orleans and are doing the SAME things to outlying towns and cities even as far as here in Baton Rouge. It's THOSE people who are hindering the rescue effort. It's THOSE people who are causing the state leadership to get so irate and demand the federal government to send troops. It's THOSE people that I would gladly shoot myself if they come anywhere near my home looking for what they can steal/loot.

After reading further, I saw your post.

I am now more informed, and much less militant in my views that the government screwed everyone by trapping them in the city.

I do still believe that they should let anyone that wants to leave, but I am more open to stopping looters...

I suppose killing armed looters who will not surrender/shoot the law enforcement is alright, but I would rather not anyone kill anyone. Especially no the authorities.

EDIT: Shadow, while I am not there and my only sources of information are forums and newspapers, what was this I hear about people being ordered to stand away from the police and supplies and exits at gunpoint? Was that made up?

Shadow View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 10:45 PM Post #53
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I think everyone would agree that they woudl hope no one gets killed. Well except the drug addicts and rapists. They can get killed.

Sabosect

Sep 2 2005, 10:48 PM

Post #54

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Shadow)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM)

So, no matter what, there is always going to be a qualification, always going to be an exception, always going to be a case where you may not like it, but it's acceptable. Don't like it? Too bad. Reality doesn't care if you like it.

Tell me the moral justification for raping a woman in a flooded city where people are starving to death? I am really interested to know in what situation this would be okay?

To be honest? I'd rather not try to answer that. It'll only piss everyone, including me, off.

But, feel free to go to those areas of Africa where something similar happens on a regular basis and asking the soldiers. Let me know how they reply.

Shadow View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 10:51 PM Post #55
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	Just because they do it, doesn't mean there is one. There is no justification, none. These people are evil in their everyday lives, and they just are letting it take over during the disaster. You want to know how someone handles stress and hardship? Look how they handle their everyday life. If they keep a calm head in life they will during hardship. If your a criminal and a evil bastard in every day life, guess what, you will be in a hardship situation too.

SL James

Sep 2 2005, 10:52 PM

Post #56

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QUOTE (Blacken)

They stopped being citizens when they started taking potshots at helicopters. They stopped being citizens when they started trucking TVs out of Wal-Mart. They are criminals in a martial law setting and there is no court proceeding or jurisdiction other than that of the military under martial law.

That's funny. I thought we lived in the United States of America, not Red China.

People in this country have Due Process rights which cannot be taken away, even if the city is in a state of emergency. Even under martial law, there is LAW with some Due Process afforded.

You're suggesting nothing less that Might Makes Right because the U.S. and law enforcement may (may) have more guns, and that allows them to do whatever the hell they want. They can't. Not here.

QUOTE (Sharaloth)

Technically, the people in NO right now DON'T have rights, because those rights cannot be enforced.

Rights are not enforced by the government. They can only be impeded or trampled on by the government.

And that is exactly what you are advocating.

hyzmarca

Sep 2 2005, 10:55 PM

Post #57

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 2 2005, 05:37 PM)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM)

So, no matter what, there is always going to be a qualification, always going to be an exception, always going to be a case where you may not like it, but it's acceptable. Don't like it? Too bad. Reality doesn't care if you like it.

Tell me the moral justification for raping a woman in a flooded city where people are starving to death? I am really interested to know in what situation this would be okay?

To be honest? I'd rather not try to answer that. It'll only piss everyone, including me, off.

But, feel free to go to those areas of Africa where something similar happens on a regular basis and asking the soldiers. Let me know how they reply.

I'm really not affraid of pissing anyone off, so I'll say it. It helps relieve stress and, when done as a team, provides a strengthed sense of camaraderie.

Don't just stop at Africa, however. Include Japanese soldiers during WWII, American soldiers during Veitnam, and probably soldiers of all nationalities during all conflicts ever.

Supercilious

Sep 2 2005, 10:55 PM

Post #58

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QUOTE (Shadow)

I think everyone would agree that they woudl hope no one gets killed. Well except the drug addicts and rapists. They can get killed.

Amen to both parts of that.

Sabosect View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 10:57 PM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	Actually, there always has been a justification attempted. "I own her." "She's less than human." "This will teach her a lesson." Those are just a small sample. And, yes, I'm feeling slightly sick at the thought that some perverted mind finds those words as justification. But, yes, the morality to support it does exist.

SL James View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 10:57 PM Post #60
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	So, it's okay to trample on some people's rights because they're not you? That makes a ton of sense. If that's the case, then just wait. Eventually they'll get to you, too.

Shadow

Sep 2 2005, 10:59 PM

Post #61

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 02:55 PM)

I'm really not affraid of pissing anyone off, so I'll say it. It helps relieve stress and, when done as a team, provides a strengthed sense of camaraderie.

Don't just stop at Africa, however. Include Japanese soldiers during WWII, American soldiers during Veitnam, and probably soldiers of all nationalities during all conflicts ever.

Thats not a moral justification. Thats you being evil and worthy of a bullet to the head.

Moral justification for killing someone is defense. Moral justification for stealing is to save lives. That is what we are talking about. What you are talking about is not a moral justification, its a rational justification. Something to help you sleep and shave so you don't think of yourself as the bastard you are.

Sabosect View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 11:08 PM Post #62
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	Shadow, at the end of the day, there is no difference. "Moral" justification for shooting someone in the head is pretty much the same as rational justification. It's just to help you sleep at the end of the day.

Supercilious View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 11:09 PM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873	Or convince the others to let you sleep, instead of stringing you up.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Sep 2 2005, 11:09 PM Post #64
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer. The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape. Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian. Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Arethusa

Sep 2 2005, 11:25 PM

Post #65

Runner

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QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 2 2005, 06:59 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 02:55 PM)

I'm really not affraid of pissing anyone off, so I'll say it. It helps relieve stress and, when done as a team, provides a strengthed sense of camaraderie.

Don't just stop at Africa, however. Include Japanese soldiers during WWII, American soldiers during Veitnam, and probably soldiers of all nationalities during all conflicts ever.

Thats not a moral justification. Thats you being evil and worthy of a bullet to the head.

Moral justification for killing someone is defense. Moral justification for stealing is to save lives. That is what we are talking about. What you are talking about is not a moral justification, its a rational justification. Something to help you sleep and shave so you don't think of yourself as the bastard you are.

Shadow, I am getting the impression you don't understand the difference between morals, mores, and ethics.

Nor have any concept of these vary in different social groups.

Shadow

Sep 2 2005, 11:26 PM

Post #66

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape.

Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian.

Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Again that is not moral justification. That is rational justification. I'll say it again, there is no, nor has there ever been, a moral justification for rape.

Sabosect

Sep 2 2005, 11:28 PM

Post #67

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Shadow)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 03:09 PM)

Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape.

Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian.

Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Again that is not moral justification. That is rational justification. I'll say it again, there is no, nor has there ever been, a moral justification for rape.

Shadow, you are failing to realize the important item: Rational justification is justification based on facts or thought-out processes. Moral justification is something intended to help you sleep at night. In most cases, they are the same thing.

Shadow

Sep 2 2005, 11:30 PM

Post #68

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Arethusa)

Nor have any concept of these vary in different social groups.

No I do, we just operate from fundamentally different perspectives. I belive in right and wrong, I believe in a just and loving god, and I belive that you should always help your fellow man no matter the cost to yourself. You should only kill in service to your country, and defense of your self, family, and those who are to weak to defend themselves.

You can dress up ethics, mores etc however you wat to justify actions that are wrong. But it doesn't change the fact that they are wrong. Right and Wrong is universal. I think that is where some of you disagree with me. You think right and wrong is a perception, not an absolute. When in fact it is an absolute.

hyzmarca

Sep 2 2005, 11:30 PM

Post #69

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QUOTE (Shadow)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 03:09 PM)

Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape.

Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian.

Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Again that is not moral justification. That is rational justification. I'll say it again, there is no, nor has there ever been, a moral justification for rape.

I agree with Arethusa, you don't understand what morals are.

Because God told me to is the ultimate moral justification. If God tells you to then, by definition, it would be immoral not to do it. This, of course, assumes universal morality.

By moral realitivism, God doesn't matter, only an indiviual.

FrostyNSO

Sep 2 2005, 11:35 PM

Post #70

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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 2 2005, 06:28 PM)

QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 2 2005, 06:26 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 03:09 PM)

Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape.

Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian.

Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Again that is not moral justification. That is rational justification. I'll say it again, there is no, nor has there ever been, a moral justification for rape.

Shadow, you are failing to realize the important item: Rational justification is justification based on facts or thought-out processes. Moral justification is something intended to help you sleep at night. In most cases, they are the same thing.

Maybe it would be reasonable if there was a proven link between sexually satisfied soldiers and their fighting ability, but there isn't any conclusive evidence.

Maybe it's just my moral standpoint, hyzmarca, but saying that the act of rape is in any way justified (even in the twisted way you tried to pass off) just makes me sick, and I seriously think you could have found a better example.

Are you saying that if it boosts morale, it should be ok for U.S. soldiers to rape any Iraqi or Afghan women they come accross?

Sabosect

Sep 2 2005, 11:38 PM

Post #71

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QUOTE (Shadow)

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Sep 2 2005, 03:25 PM)

Nor have any concept of these vary in different social groups.

No I do, we just operate from fundamentally different perspectives. I belive in right and wrong, I believe in a just and loving god, and I belive that you should always help your fellow man no matter the cost to yourself. You should only kill in service to your country, and defense of your self, family, and those who are to weak to defend themselves.

You can dress up ethics, mores etc however you wat to justify actions that are wrong. But it doesn't change the fact that they are wrong. Right and Wrong is universal. I think that is where some of you disagree with me. You think right and wrong is a perception, not an absolute. When in fact it is an absolute.

Shadow, do yourself a favor: Stop now. At this point, the only way you are going to get anywhere is to accept the fact that from this point on you have effectively painted a gigantic bullseye on your beliefs and that, to be frank, using them as you have is a sign you no longer have any logical ground on which to stand. You're presenting beliefs as facts, and that they are not. I believe that the world we see is a shallow representation of the entirety of it. Does that mean it's the truth? No.

Beliefs are not truths, no matter how much you wish otherwise.

hyzmarca

Sep 2 2005, 11:48 PM

Post #72

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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 2 2005, 06:28 PM)

QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 2 2005, 06:26 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 2 2005, 03:09 PM)

Okay, moral justification. My men fight better when they are sexually satisfied. When they fight better they are less likely to die and more likely to win. My men and I are fighting for justice and liberty. If we win everyone will be happier and if we lose everyone will suffer.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of th eone and the needs of the many are best served through this particular act of rape.

Of course, that moral justification is best used if you are an Utilitarian.

Here is another one. God told me to. That always works. God is always morally right.

Again that is not moral justification. That is rational justification. I'll say it again, there is no, nor has there ever been, a moral justification for rape.

Shadow, you are failing to realize the important item: Rational justification is justification based on facts or thought-out processes. Moral justification is something intended to help you sleep at night. In most cases, they are the same thing.

Maybe it would be reasonable if there was a proven link between sexually satisfied soldiers and their fighting ability, but there isn't any conclusive evidence.

Maybe it's just my moral standpoint, hyzmarca, but saying that the act of rape is in any way justified (even in the twisted way you tried to pass off) just makes me sick, and I seriously think you could have found a better example.

Are you saying that if it boosts morale, it should be ok for U.S. soldiers to rape any Iraqi or Afghan women they come accross?

From one point of view, yes. I don't enjoy that point of view. I do understand it, however.

You still have't adressed the big one. God told me to. It isn't an act of selfish violence but is instead a sacred duty. In that situation, no one could deny that it is moral.

mmu1 View Member Profile	Sep 3 2005, 12:16 AM Post #73
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058	People should be fucking shot for trying to use relativism to win arguments...

Sabosect View Member Profile	Sep 3 2005, 12:22 AM Post #74
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	Mmu1, that has got to be the funniest thing I have read all day.

Shadow

Sep 3 2005, 12:42 AM

Post #75

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

Beliefs are not truths, no matter how much you wish otherwise.

You mean how no matter how much you wish other wise.

I never claimed that humans and morality is logical. I feel really bad for you guys. Really bad.

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