 Adepts, a game-balance nightmare? |
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 Sep 2 2005, 09:26 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415  |
Is it just me, or are the rules for adept open to horrible, horrible munchkinism? From +12/+12 ballistic and impact armour abuse with mystic armour, to the fact that adept powers have no availability or cost limits, (meaning that nothing is out of bounds at character generation) to the fact that adepts can raise skills sky-high and hit the 24 dice cap at generation...
Plus, if an adept sees a piece of cyberware that's better than his magic, he can just install it (low-cost stuff like smartlinks are an example) and the street samurai can't get any advantage over him. Plus, there's only so far a street sam can go before even deltaware cyber has filled all his 6 essence. An adept can keep getting powers indefinitely. Would some kind of house rule preventing adepts from spending more than a certain number of power points on a single power at character generation be a good idea? I mean, sammies can't take wired reflexes 2 at chargen, should adepts be prevented from taking improved reflexes 2 at chargen? |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:38 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
You're not the only one.
A partial fix might be to limit all skill and other assorted bonuses to +3. That would help keep them from getting completely out of hand while still allowing some nice benefits. It limits advancement, but SR4 has used caps in lots of places, so one more shouldn't be fatal. |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:45 AM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
1) I believe that you are limited in Power levels to your Magic, so this curbs them a bit. 2) Magic past 6 is damn expensive. 3) Combat Senses are the new Adept munchkin move. 4) I sense that Mystic Adept can be used more effectively now. Their total Magic attribute (before they split between PP and casting/summoning Magic) is what limits there Power levels and max Force spells. Though i haven't search down this path my inner power-roleplayer child is telling me crunchie goodness is lieing in wait for me there. ;) 5) They now offically Initiate just like the other awakened, instead of the screw-job they took in the SR3 FAQ. 6) Nobody needs to implant SL2 anymore unless they want to shun using a PAN for security reasons. Overall yes they appear to be where the munchkin doth call home in SR4. At least for now.
Yes, well a few months back when it came out that Magic was to become an attribute that started out independant of Essense and that you'd buy up like other Attributes it occured to me an idea for a partial solution would be allowing a PC to buy up their Essense attribute in a similar way (with some limits and such) to curb cyberware at chargen but allow better expansion of it over time. However i found this to be very jarring to 15 years of traditional SR sensibilities. I think that bout 75% of people polled here reactived strongly negatively to the idea. Truthfully lower than i expected, but still a damn high number. So undoing that initial abitrary game design decision would be a tough slog. :( |
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Sep 2 2005, 09:46 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
That seems reasonable. I'll cook up something more solid when I actually have the book in front of me.
Edit: Blakkie, well, it's a house rule. It doesn't have to please the majority of people, I suppose :) |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:12 AM
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#5
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
According to the August 25th erratta they can. The Availability should be 12R. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:19 AM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Here is the thread. There is a lot of....heat coming off that street, as it were. But you might want to read the thread all the way through to get it set in your mind how you want to lay out the house rule. Also some of the choices suggested are not particularly applicable unless you want to change all the essense costs in the 'ware tables. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:22 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Oh, right. Thanks for that. So, how about this as a quick and dirty adept house-rule fixy thing: An adept may only spend up to 3 points on any one power at character generation. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:23 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I'd suggest instead
An adept can buy no more than three levels in any one power at character creation You can do ungodly things with three power points. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:24 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Yeah, but that still allows adepts to get the equivalent of wired reflexes 3 at generation.
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Sep 2 2005, 10:28 AM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
... and not a whole lot else in the process. You can't get any 'ware or other powers without that costly Magic 6. Although you'd be the fastest cat right out of chargen, i don't think i'd worry about that so much. *shrug* |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:34 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Ah, you might have a point. I'm just pleased I'm not that only one who thinks they need some kind of limiter at generation :)
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Sep 2 2005, 10:34 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
a sam can get synaptic boosters at chargen, they are equivalent to wired reflexes 2 and cost only 1 essence.
adepts are not overpowerd, just take alook what attribute bonuses a sam can amass with bioware. the essence costs are very very low. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:41 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'd like to say that based on playtesting I disagree with the initial assessment. SR4 adepts are generally more limited and more expensive to develop than their SR3 equivalents.
a) An SR3-equivalent adept is significantly more expensive BP-wise in SR4. b) You no longer necessarily begin with Magic 6 and hence 6 "guaranteed" power points to invest. c) Initiation no longer automatically grants a magic point and hence a power point. You now pay initiation and Magic increases separately, so the development curve for adepts is slower than it was in SR3. d) Magic rating provides a cap on power ratings just like SR3 (although you should take into consideration Magic is no longer 6 at start). e) The fact that Essence loss subtracts from your Magic (whatever level it is) and hence your overall power points and max power rating means the decision to install cyber or bio is more complex than the straight forward trade-off in SR3. f) the revised essence costs and price of cyber allows a sam more flexibility than under SR3. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:47 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
One of these points is clearly wrong:
(a) Adepts cost 25bp in SR3. That's 20% of the total. 20% of 400 points is 80 points. For 80 points you can buy Magic 6 (65 points), Adept (5 points), and have 10 bp left over to spend on foci. And another is very questionable: (e) Bioware is a very viable option for Adepts. Five stat points in exchange for one karma point? Sounds like a good deal to me. And they get to keep their Sensitive System flaw for 15bp. |
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Sep 2 2005, 10:47 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
I'm not saying adepts are necessarily overpowered. It's just that generally speaking, it's very very easy to max out one aspect of your character, while a samurai type usually has to spread out his bonuses somewhat.
All we're suggesting is limiting how many points can be used on ONE power at character generation. Our houserule wouldn't affect their development past that point at all. |
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Sep 2 2005, 11:52 AM
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#16
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Max 3 rating seems reasonable. I wouldn´t worry about the wired 3 equivilent. Initiative boosts seem to be far less powerful than in any of the previous editions.
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Sep 2 2005, 12:26 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 422 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 875 |
Yeah this is kind of how it's been for the last 16 years. Samurais eventually run out of things to upgrade to separate them from the pack, but Adepts always at least have the option of getting new powers.
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Sep 2 2005, 12:28 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Well, I don't see that as as much of a problem - samurai have the advantage of being able to spend their cash on upgrading their "powers" and their karma on upgrading their skills. Adepts have to use karma for both.
And by the time a samurai actually runs out of stuff to get, the game's already probably been running for years. |
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Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'll concede the point, even though I was taking into account ajusted typical Power costs and the fact that you now have to buy the 2 initial contacts. |
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Sep 2 2005, 01:05 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
Because "low" for samurai is equal to "unlimited" for adepts? |
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Sep 2 2005, 01:12 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
3 Points of Magic above 6 cost you 120 Karma.
Thats not what I call unlimited. Especially as the Sam can use both, money and karma, and the Adept can only use karma. |
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Sep 2 2005, 01:20 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
Quit trying to be disingenuous. You can't do it well.
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Sep 2 2005, 01:25 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
reading post . . . done
parsing grammar . . . done looking for content . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . failed error: no content found. aborting |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:20 PM
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#24
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
In SR3 if you are a Sam, you probably have everything you will ever need (cyber wise) at chargen. All thats left are new kinds of guns to play with (but not really since all the guns are virtually the same) replacement armor and raising stats and skills. |
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Sep 2 2005, 04:27 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
How about freeing up half your essence by replacing your chargen cyber with deltaware and filling that half up as well, thus doubling your gadgetry?
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