 SoA-Middle East, and what's changed? |
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 Sep 3 2005, 03:55 PM
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#1
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Prime Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221  |
I read through this section out of interest for Israel. There has been interesting references to Israel since first Ed. Not just the reference to them nuking Lybia, but little things-a quote from some techie saying osmething like "It's deffinately not israeli dispite the case." etc. made me wonder is israel a center of tech, spies what?
Well. I'm still knid of wondering. The whole chapter seemed to be "where are they now?" of the movers and shakers who are on the eveing news today, RL. and the answer seems to be-right where they are in 2005. Almost litterally. Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Iran... plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose, n'est pas? . I guess for discriptions and fashions and customs and such we just tune in to the local news. I found this really to be a let down. sorry guys. The one thing that made me take notice was the very last entry. what is going on with the UIM? It first gets brought up with the leader assassinated who rises from the dead and we all speculated he was possessed by a Shgedim. In Loose Alliances we got a lot of detail to play with and now we seem to have a split between the split between the movment and Caliph of Arabia. Now this would seem to mirror the current rift developing between the ruling family of Saudi Arabia and the religous extremists following bin Laden. (short history, for many years these two groups ignored each other. the understanding was the fundies could operate in SA as long as they didn't mess with the Royals. That has now changed.) Was this a storey line that never developed or generated interest so the plot line is changing to create running options or to avoid offending muslim customers? |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:05 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 6-August 02 From: Kiel, Germany Member No.: 3,071 |
I think the plot line is finished in System Failure...
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Sep 3 2005, 04:06 PM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I can tell you that it wasn't the latter, but I can't really tell you what it is. Because I don't exactly know. The whole UIM/Ibn Eisa/Middle East thing is sort of a mix of potential plot hooks, but never really evolved into a full major plotline (at least, it hasn't yet). I think part of the reasoning why it never really took off was that Shadowrun just doesn't have much focus in the Middle East. In SR3, runners were based out of Seattle, for the most part, and while there was an awkward (but earnest) attempt to globalize them, there wasn't really the support in place. So while there are a lot of potentially great ways to use the Middle Eastern plothooks, they seem really detached from most of Shadowrun's players in SR3. And it would have been odd to have a major plot focusing on the Middle East without the game support for the area (notice that nearly every SR plot event focused or had major effects in Seattle). I like the direction SR4 is going with the multiple signature cities. I think this will give us the support, reason, and backing to try to branch out on plots. If there were a major shadowrunning city (with a lot of canon detail) in the Middle East, a major Middle Eastern plotline would make more sense. EDIT: And yeah, there is more movement on the plot in System Failure. |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:41 PM
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#4
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
OK, I've talked to some other guys(apart from my gaming group) in my FLGS about SOA and the general consensus was: If we wanted a history lesson, we would go buy a history book. Although the book was generally well written and taken in the context of 2064++SR and while we like the plot hooks and other game info, we feel that the writers could have been more creative. The general feel was (like Snow Fox has said) more things change the more they stay the same. What was portrayed as happening in the Asian countries in 2064++(apart from Japan) was an Awakened extrapolation from comtemporary histories of those countries.
Perhaps it is because the regions written are close to our hearts and we actually live where you are writing about that we do not feel the freshness that we get when we read SOE or SOAmerica. |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:46 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 191 Joined: 26-February 02 From: East Jerusalem Member No.: 2,022 |
I see some truth to this comment, but some situations are definitely not the same: Palestine (on its way to being a state), the status of Jerusalem... Now I agree the situation is still in flux and didn't change THAT radically. |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:52 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Keep in mind that the writers walk a tightrope. On one hand, yes, you want to be creative. You want it to be a fictionalized version of the setting, because otherwise, you might as well just hit Wikipedia or go to your local library for info. On the other hand, far reaching fiction in location books has, in the past, received pretty harsh criticism from the players. Heck, you can look a few threads over at some fresh criticism about Germany in SR. :P But I'd definitely say that SoA isn't all just a regurgitation of current history. I mean, Tibet for instance (the section I wrote) definitely isn't the same as the current situation there. |
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Sep 3 2005, 05:06 PM
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#7
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
To be honest, when I read about what happened to Jerusalem I laughed. To my mind at least it just seems completely improbable. The Israeli's are going to give up their capital and just let the UN slide in with the Ecumenical Council? No matter how weird the magic, they'd laugh in anyone's face if they attempted it. Right before shooting them in it.
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Sep 3 2005, 05:11 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
To be honest, just about anything happening in Jerusalem is improbable. It's been a stalemated situation for decades, and unless you keep the stalemated situation, you are going to have to do something improbable.
But the improbable can happen, especially in Shadowrun. Hell, if you asked people about the current Gaza pullout years ago, they would have likely said that was improbable. |
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Sep 3 2005, 05:15 PM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
My only thought wass "THe UN did anything decisively? wow."
Maybe I missed it but it was hinted the Kabalahists practice blood magic. (Anyone seen Madonna lately? hmmm) Anyone else see a problem following that plot line? |
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Sep 3 2005, 07:56 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
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Sep 3 2005, 08:38 PM
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#11
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
João Nunes and Anthony Bruno were the authors. On the blood magic angle, it really depends on how they use it. The Great Ghost Dance where the Native American shamans gave their life energy to power the ritual was wholly voluntary but comes under the category of blood magic. ED split blood magic into two main groups, life magic and death magic. Life magic was used to seal deals or oaths, boost spells or adept powers by sacrificing a little pyhsical damage instead of mental drain. Death magic is where someone dies to power the spell - either voluntarily or involuntarily. Part of Israeli's soldiers oath involves swearing that "Masada shall not fall again" which coupled with this and the general national psyche makes me think that they'd have enough magicians more than willing to give their lives in a GGD type ritual to defend their country. On the mention that the Kabbalists apparently use it a lot, I figure it's talking physical damage to offset drain and sealing things like blood oaths they're refering to. On the Jerusalem matter, I still think the authors were smoking crack. And not in a good way. So weird magic and mana warps force the Israeli's out, yet when it subsides the UN somehow manages to beat the IDF back into the area? Rubbish. They're not just going to shrug and wander off, they'd have ringed the place with military units and cordoned it off for study. That the UN somehow got in before the people camped right next to it is going to take a hell of a lot of hand waving and good arguments to convince me it's even half way credible. But then I'm not much of a fan of Peter's stuff on the UN in general and how the last few books have tried to shoehorn it into the world. :/ |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:26 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
And just to contrats, we like the history lesson style. Although I tend to agree with Snow Fox here, it seemed sort of like rehashing the news. |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:32 PM
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#13
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
To be honest, I play Shadowrun BECAUSE it's an extrapolation of the real world (albeit, in some cases, the "real world" as it was during the 80s and 90s rather than our current 2000s). The fact that the much of the game setting is an extrapolation of "what could be" instead of "what if", even with the fantastic element of magic is the main draw for me. Sure, there are hard pills to swallow in the Sixth World (the NAN taking over half of North America, Amazonia, etc.), and those are the things that irk me a bit. But when I play Shadowrun, I want a game that could be plausibly grounded in a timeline parallel to our own. I like Castle Falkenstein for a similar reason... a parallel, but not so different, history.
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Sep 4 2005, 11:25 AM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Just for the record Flak, none of the UN material has been mine. My credits in the relevant chapter were for Aegis (which I introduced in SoE) and co-writing the aristo cabal (again SoE-related but playing off Target:Smuggler Havens). |
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Sep 4 2005, 03:26 PM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
In our world we never thought of the UN. With it slowly re-emerging we kind of think of it as having been there all along but doing notrhing except talk and shuffle ppaers while the world goes by outside their windows. (Hey we're New Yorkers in RL, that's pretty much our view of the RL place nayway.)
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Sep 4 2005, 05:37 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 191 Joined: 26-February 02 From: East Jerusalem Member No.: 2,022 |
The UN chapter in LA was written by me as well as all of Israel/Jerusalem/Palestine. I fully agree the Jerusalem situation can sound unbelievable with only limited wordcount. But if you read the section carefully you know how *essential* the corps are to Israel and how many strings they can pull in the UN. It's deliberately left vague so anyone can make whatever he wants out of it. But Israel in SoA is in dead need of corp support, so bad it has to accept drastic compromises. You'll note they didn't have to evacuate Jerusalem's inhabitants (except from the Old City during the magical balagan), only hand over the control of its security. Consider the state of isolation Israel is in at that time. What does it live on ? Which countries does it trade with ? The corps hold A LOT of power there. And please, *don't* consider the UN at that time as its 2000's alter ego. They've just been revived *by the corps* and are basically a powerful, ruthless corp tool in '45, not a bunch of seat warmers. |
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Sep 4 2005, 06:25 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you know, here's something that kinda bothers me. israel is enemy #1 for just about every islamic extremist out there. and in SR, a large portion of the middle east has been gathered into an extremist army that beat the everliving crap out of... europe!? crushing israel into non-existance would have taken at most one entire weekend. israel has lots of nice toys, sure, but you can't hold ground with toys. you need bodies, and the jihad had that in spades. what's israel going to do, nuke them? that's the great thing about the type of extremists that islam tends to produce: they don't care. any price is worth winning.
so, yeah. i know it's not the SoA writers' fault that israel still exists; both israel and the great jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? it just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity. |
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Sep 4 2005, 06:39 PM
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#18
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Apologies. For some reason I was under the impression that you'd written the material. My mistake. |
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Sep 4 2005, 06:49 PM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Well, there is nuking them and then there is reducing entire nations to radioactive ash. If the former doesn't work then the latter something will. You can't fight if you aren't alive. |
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Sep 4 2005, 06:54 PM
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#20
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
That always struck me as odd as well. That they'd go off invading Europe rather than finishing off Israel, who they hate a whole hell of a lot more, first before then moving on to Eastern Europe and Spain. Doesn't make a lot of sense leaving a highly dangerous., nuclear armed enemy at your back. |
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Sep 4 2005, 07:51 PM
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#21
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Life mfb said, they don't care. If they nuked everything from Tehran to Cairo, there are still millions of Muslims who were invading Europe who now have a huge reason to destroy Israel for nuking Saudi Arabia, etc. Besides, how many nukes could Israel have before they either run out or got overrun? They'd be nuking their own land at some point. |
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Sep 4 2005, 07:53 PM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I'm with the nuke option. Jordan/Syria/Egypt will not tolerate an army to march accross it on the way to Tel Aviv if they know the Israelis are gonig to nuke them. They do not have to use force, just say "Sorry oh Jihadists, no water to spare for your big ol' army"
also TODAY there are lots of dedicated wackos who would die to get a shot at Israel, the problem, for them, is that Israeli troops are well trained and equiped. A small force of well trained regulars can inflict crippling loses on massed attackers, no matter how dedicated those attackers are. |
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Sep 4 2005, 07:57 PM
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#23
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Like the Alamo.
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Sep 4 2005, 09:00 PM
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#24
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Most estimates put them at having at least a hundred nuclear warheads and a possible maximum of up to two hundred, although some reports talk of nearer four hundred devices. They're mostly mounted on short or medium-range land based missiles along with aeroplane deployed missiles and bombs, although they're rumoured to have nuclear capable cruise missiles aboard some of the three submarines they bought off of Germany a while back. A random thought, what are the prevailing winds like over Israel? Even if they restricted themselved to using nuclear weapons on foereign soil, would they still get a face full of contaminated weather? |
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Sep 4 2005, 09:42 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
The winds...depend. I might be wrong, but I recall the summer wind coming from the desert, winter from the Med.
I'm unsure though. |
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