 Why is Karma Cost different from BP Cost?, The less math I have to do the better. |
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 Sep 4 2005, 05:11 PM
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#1
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
So the BP cost for stats and skills and resources and spells and foci and positive qualities is all linear. The Karma cost is linear for skill specializations, foci, positive qualities, and spells, but it's triangular for attributes and skills (other than specialization).
This causes a number of problems. The first problem is that some things have a larger or smaller relative cost if you buy them later vs. character creation, and the second problem is that within some categories (like attributes) it is more advantageous to start with extremes and then buy up the weaker examples later than it is to start generalized and increase everything. Let's look at the costs of buy different things at or after character generation. Let's assume that if something has a rating, we are buying the second rating point (as this is the smallest available purchase of attributes): Purchased Item: BP Cost: Karma Cost: Karma to BP Value: Skill Specialization: 2 2 100% Ordinary Skill: 4 4 100% Skill Group: 10 10 100% Attribute: 10 6 167% Positive Quality: 10 20 50% New Spell: 3 5 60% Focus: 3 3 100% So... for most things, a Karma Point seems to be equal to a build point. But for a few things the value is more or less. This creates a system in which two characters can be exactly the same, but one of them has spent more or less Karma because they spent their intial BPs on things which in later life would cost more or less. Last I checked, that was bad for game balance. But that's not the only thing. It isn't just that spending your BPs into different categories is a better and/or worse deal, it's that within a category there are right choices and wrong choices. Let's consider the example where you want to have two sixes eventually. You can't start with them, so how should you spend your starting stat points? Example 1: The character begins life with two fours. This costs 60 BPs. Buying each stat to six costs 5x3 and then 6x3, for a total of 66 Karma. So for 60 BPs and 66 Karma, you can have natural human maximum in your two favorite stats by starting play with fours in both of them. Example 2: The character begins life with a 5 and a 3. This costs 60 BPs. Buying the five up to natural human maximum costs 18 Karma, and buying the 3 up to natural human maximum costs you 4x3 + 5x3 + 6x3, for a grand total of only 63 Karma, you have both your 6s. So that's 60 BPs and 63 Karma to get to the same place as the other guy got with 60 BPs and 66 Karma. Example 3: The character begins life with a 6 and a 1. This costs 65 BPs. Buying the six up to 6 is of course free, but buying the 1 all the way up to human maximum costs 2x3 + 3x3 + 4x3 + 5x3 + 6x3 = 60 Karma. So for 65 BPs and 60 Karma, you can be where those other guys are. Excuse me: what the heck? At the end of the day, all three characters are exactly the same. Except of course that one of them has spent 60 BPs and 66 Karma, one has spent 60 BPs and 63 Karma, and the last guy has spent 65 BP and 60 Karma. --- So I ask: Why aren't BP costs the same as Karma costs? It would work fine in either direction, actually. You could replace all the BP costs with Karma costs (although this has the problem of being a completely unplayable mess like BeCKs was). Or you could just replace Karma costs with the BP values. I'm in favor of the second optin, because it means that I have to do less math. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:17 PM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Easy there, dude. There are a LOT of fans of BECKS on these forums. Know your audience, or it's just going to end up another flamefest like your voodoo thread. |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:22 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
in days of calculators and excel one should not worry about math
ont he contrary, as long as there is a computer programm that does it for you, char creation rules should be as complex as possible. |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:26 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Well, you have actually alleviated one of my fears. The difference in BPs and Karms, IMO, is neglible. The variance from 60 in BP is 0,0,5 and the variance from 60 for Karma is 6,3,0. For the cost of maybe a negative flaw for BPs and the cost of maybe 1 (maybe 2...) game sessions to make three characters equal that started off with different skills... |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:28 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
True. I am actually creating a character generator for my gaming group using Excel. The only thing I am held up on, right now, is now doing the costs for Cyberarms, legs, torso, and head. And I haven't added gear because I am way to much of a slacker to get into that much detail. |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:45 PM
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#6
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
or look at it in this sort of way. When you are creating the character, think about it as these are the things you've been working on through your time in college (or whatever time) it's EASIER (and thus cheaper) to learn/improve at something when you're focused on doing just that. Once you're past that point (you'r running) you're more focused on surviving, getting the job done, getting the money to eat, and occassionally picking up on things that are useful.
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Sep 4 2005, 05:54 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It mostly is. Of course, if the characters in the example had spent an extra 20 BP on getting both stats up to five, they'd only pay 36 karma to get to double sixes - so the value of karma to build points isn't consistent. In Example 3, 5 BPs saved you 3 Karma. But in Example 4, 20 BPs saved you 27. And if I had instead done this with two Skills, the difference would have been more marked. Two fours cost 32 BPs, and cost 44 Karma to advance to double sixes. A five and a three cost 32 BPs, and cost 42 Karma to advance to double sixes. And a six and a one also cost only 28 BPs, and cost only 40 Karma to advance to double sixes. he best choice, is obvious. Of course, the real question is: since Karma and BPs are so similar, what benefit is gained from having the separate cost tracks at all? Now, as for character generation - I like to make characters on the road, and while I play Shadowrun with Computer Scientists, Organic Chemists, and people who work on the Genome Projects (the Human Genome was compiled about 500 meters from where I lived last year), I also play with people who are dyslexic and math-phobes. There are people who can handle a massive pile of quadratic equations to make characters and there are people who can't. I play with both. Adding complexity to character generation adds nothing but complexity. The only thing I care about is that character generation and advancement are fair. And while that can be accomplished by making things more or less complicated, I see no reason to do it by increasing complexity. I don't live in AR, and as GM I should be able to ballpark a character's generation math in my head just by looking at the sheet casually. As soon as things become as complex as tax law, I might as well be playing a computer game. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2005, 05:58 PM
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#8
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I'd just like to note that there is a premium on skills at character creation. You can only have one 6, or two 5s (but not both). So while the 6 and 1 example costs only 28 BP and 40 Karma, you have used up your "6" slot for skills and can't take anything else above a 4.
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Sep 4 2005, 07:13 PM
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#9
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Iīm so glad you guys didnīt have any influence over SR4 character creation rules. |
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Sep 4 2005, 09:06 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
I guess I must have not well understood ? You say adding 10 bp add one to the attribute for example. But you need 3 times (your attribute +1) to add one to it by karma. I really don't understand your table saying - Attribute: 10 6 167% And to me, bp are not linked to karma at all !!! (except for positive quality who have just a cost in point, no rating) I really think the cost in karma and bp should be the same (at least proportional), which doesn't means it has to be complex : ie : cost of skill (both in bp and karma) rating 1-3 : 4 by point rating 4-5 : 6 by point rating 6 : 8 point rating 7 : 10 point (irrelevant in character creation) and so on ... edit : correction (posted to quickly by mistake !) |
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Sep 4 2005, 10:28 PM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The first number is the cost to bring an attribute from 1 to 2 with build points. The second number is the cost to bring an attribute from 1 to 2 with Karma. The third number is just the value of a Karma point compared to a build point when bringing an attribute from 1 to 2. So since it takes only 6 Karma to get an attribute from 1 to 2, a Karma Point is (for this task) worth more than a build point (which would cost 10 instead of 6 to get the same effect). Later in the progression it switches, where buying an attribute to 5 from 4 costs 15 Karma or only 10 build points. And then it switches back, where it costs 25 BPs to get all the way up to 6, but only 18 Karma. Of course, more extreme examples certainly exist. A Troll pays 10 BP to bring their strength from 8 to 9, but that would cost 27 Karma! --- And this still doesn't address the fact that Attributes are better than Skill Groups, and even in the best case scenario (from a game balance stand point), they cost the same amount of BPs. BPs still need modification, as I don't see Attributes as not being worth considerably more than Skill Groups. which means that even amongst the BPs, either the Attributes have to become more expensive (whihc I do not advise, the cap is already a 3.5 average), or the price of skills has to come down. ---
This sort of thing is workable. Unfortunately, it does become quite complex as soon as people start having Skill Groups and Skills that overlap. With a purely linear system, a Skill that is part of a skill group can be largely ignored when purchasing the skill group. That is, if you have a Stealth of 2 it costs 10 BP to buy the Stealth up to 3. And if you have a Stealth of 2 and an Infiltration of 3, it still costs 10 BP to buy the Stealth up to 3 (and coincidentally jacks the Stealth up to 4). In even your simple case, it would then cost 10 points to buy the Stealth up to 3 alone, but if you also had an Infiltration of 3 you would need to pay 12 points because the rollover from 3 to 4 has a higher cost. Even a relatively simple situation like that comes around to bite us in the end with the interaction of Skill Groups. Now a perfectly reasonable solution would be to drop Skill Groups altogether and be done with it - but I rather like them. Instead, I would prefer a system in which the price increases didn't come in until 6 or so, and made it be something like Initiation - 15 points to get an atribute up to 6, 20 points to be able to buy an attribute to 7, 25 for 8.... and so on and so forth. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2005, 10:37 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Just an FYI, you can not have Skills and Skill Groups that overlap. The minute a Skill is below/above the Skill Group rating, the character gains all the other Skills at the Skill Group rating. For example, if I had Firearms at 4, and decided to buy Pistols up to 5, I would gain Pistols at 5, and my Skill Group would break into Longarms at 4 and Automatics at 4. They are exclusive parameters.
\edit I added "below" in the offchance something could happen to a character that would cause them to lose a point in a Skill. Can't think of any, but just in case. |
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Sep 4 2005, 10:59 PM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I know. That's a concession to the unmanageability of raising a skill group and a skill separately in a triangular Karma system. It's sort of clever (although it does mean that the earlier you splurge on a single skill out of a group the more Karma you end up paying). However, just as in character generation you can decide to purchase the individual skill points and the skill group points in any order, if the skill costs after character generation were rationalized to BPs in a linear fashion you could do that after character generation as well. In short, a linear system of advancement picks up a substantial amount of functionality and fairness automatically as long as Skill Groups exist. -Frank |
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Sep 5 2005, 08:54 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Thanks Frank for making it clear to me.
I really find those karma / build point rules stupid, but at least they are not more than in sr3 ... Will becks - sr4 be out soon ??? |
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