God Bless America [SPOILERS] - Dumpshock Forums

God Bless America [SPOILERS], - who is next?

Which country will the Conspiracy try to take over now?
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JÃ¼rgen Hubert View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 07:03 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,453	Now that the Conspiracy to reestablish the USA has successfully taken over the UCAS, which country will they try to take over next?

Walknuki View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 02:27 PM Post #2
Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869	California. Rich natural resources, access to the western coast, and provides a large staging ground for further invasions that would burden many enemies with two fronts.

Grinder View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 03:27 PM Post #3
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	But LA is under iirc under Pueblo control....

warrior_allanon View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 04:33 PM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273	easier to start in the CAS, and allows a whole front against the NAN instead of having to come down after you pass the CAS/NAN border

Supercilious View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 05:38 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873	I voted for the injuns, because as much as I think oppressing the red man is wrong, I am angry that they took "my" land, and I want them evicted with bullets.

bclements View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 05:51 PM Post #6
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,507 Joined: 27-January 05 From: ...and I'm all out of bubblegum Member No.: 7,021	It said that the Sioux had some fallout as well...but Cali seems like the best bet for now. I'd imagine that non-NR people in power in the NAN are a little bit more aware than what they were before. The CAS wing maybe realized that they were going to bite off a bit more than they could chew and bided their time.

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 05:59 PM Post #7
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Cali is extremely weak and looking to get some savior loving. :love: So what if the Pueblo have their hooks into that salt-water marsh of LA. If a foothold can be made in the rest then two front pressure can be brought on them to later to bring LA back in the fold. EDIT: Though i can't deny the wisdom of consolidating the vast majority of the eastern side of the continent with CAS to then have a huge base from which to push West. But are UCAS and CAS ready to mend what was torn? With Cali who is dominant and who is the subverant is obvious. But with CAS they are likely to rip it all appart again jockying for political control of the whole.

SL James View Member Profile	Sep 5 2005, 06:24 PM Post #8
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	With Pueblo and Salish, though, they effectively surround most of Sioux. Once PCC is onboard, the CAS would be easier and you now have a country that reaches both oceans and can bitch slap the one country that would be the greatest symnbolic victory (Sioux) which has also given them nothing but trouble... until you get to the Tir. Taking the Tir would be a pyrrhic victory given the costs involved. It's be much easier to take California once they control PCC.

Wireknight View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 10:37 AM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118	Are there any details about the new regime that's described as having taken hold, in Tir Tairngire, in one of the adventure idea sections in System Failure? You'd think a massive governmental overthrow, successful or not, would be something the world would notice. Deposing the High Prince seems like an odd thing to relegate to single sentence in one paragraph a 130+ page sourcebook.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 11:14 AM Post #10
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	I know! I saw someone mention that, and there's NOTHING else on it! What's with that!? KINDA important! I blame Green Lucifer

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 11:16 AM Post #11
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	Sadly, most of System Failure is made of nice, but mostly meaningless Fluff, Hints how Civilization tends to break down when the Infrastructure goes haywire, some five-step adventures with additional plothooks and... well... very few actual information about the real changes.

Synner

Sep 9 2005, 11:44 AM

Post #12

Runner

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 9 2005, 11:16 AM)

well... very few actual information about the real changes.

Could you clarify "actual changes"? Are you referring to the impact of the Crash not being covered in sufficient detail? To the changes that follow System Failure and play out during the 5 year gap between SR3 and SR4 not being covered? To the immediate fallout of the System Failure not being comprehensive? Or to something else?

For reference, the book was only ever intended to cover the events in 2063-64 leading up to the System Failure in November 64 and then the immediate aftermath (fallout and ramifications within about 6 months of the event). Plus we intended to leave enough leeway for gamemasters to scale the impact of the Crash on their campaign to suit their needs.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 12:04 PM Post #13
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	I' mainly referring to the Aftershock Chapter, simply having... gaps in information. The collages of Forewarning, Critical error were as nice to read as were the explanation on Novatechs IPO, but essentially, if wordcount was a problem, it would have been somehow more convenient to cut some those 'fiction' for some more 'facts'. Those 'facts' are hinted in a way they already limit flexibility, but there is few info around them to incorporate them in a way not to screw up when the new setting books come out. The style throughout the book is quite good, though.

Dashifen

Sep 9 2005, 03:58 PM

Post #14

Technomancer

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QUOTE (blakkie)

But with CAS they are likely to rip it all appart again jockying for political control of the whole.

Thus providing more oportunities for the shadow communitities :D

6thDragon View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 04:56 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605	From a stragetic standpoint probably Sioux. California is devastated and would be hard to maintain supplies to. Sioux however might take advantage of any other opening of hostilities so they should be dealt with first. Plus that would be a good test of the military's abilities before any larger campaign is started against CAS or anyone else. Besides CAS would be a big pill to swallow.

SL James View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 07:44 PM Post #16
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	You don't need a military invasion of the CAS. You need a political takeover. Sioux might be possible given that it was suggested it suffered the came or higher level of turmoil as the UCAS (Although they managed to lead the massive bitchslapping of Tsimshian after the Crash). I got the book specifically for Aftershock, and even more specifically for The Tree of Liberty, and I was completely blown away at how much was not only lacking, but made little to no sense. I don't understand why Nadja Daviar was still in Seattle. I don't understand the full-page image at all for various reasons which comes just from watching the West Wing. The Haida uprising reminded me of the end of Equilibrium (which we all know is a masterpiece of film-making), and Surehand... Jesus fuck, man. The High Prince of Tir Tairngire was deposed as is being actively hunted by his former liege guards and expediters, and it didn't merit any bit of explanation? This isn't a wordcount problem. This is an editing problem, which is compounded by too many instances of sentences being written with extraneous words, or just written in a very muddled fashion (to use an old saying, it was as clear as mud). Whoever (mis)edited this book should be shitcanned.

Dashifen View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 08:02 PM Post #17
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	Interesting. I actually liked that the entire section was basically one liners leaving everything else up to the immagination. Plus, it leaves more for future freelancers to build from. If things are more loose ends now, they can be tied up later.

SL James View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 08:16 PM Post #18
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	It also leaves the field open to the assassination attempt against Daviar being foiled by her umpteen grade Initiate Dunkelzahn-trained Drake boyfriend as opposed to her Secret Service detail doing its job.

Synner

Sep 9 2005, 09:51 PM

Post #19

Runner

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QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 9 2005, 08:16 PM)

It also leaves the field open to the assassination attempt against Daviar being foiled by her umpteen grade Initiate Dunkelzahn-trained Drake boyfriend as opposed to her Secret Service detail doing its job.

If that's what a GM wants, why not? Or if it's more interesting to have Mr. Mercury off on a secret Assets Inc mission when the Crash hits and his lady love gets in trouble, why isn't that just as feasible? Or if the GM hates the character have him die a stupid death and vanish as barely a foot note in bigger events? Or if a GM prefers to have Mercury blown off the face of the earth while heroically saving Washington from it's nuke, why not leave that open too?

Mercury is one of the those elements of the Shadowrun universe I never cared for or understood, however I know for a fact that while there are fans who despise Mr. Munchie, there are plenty of fans out there who like the character. Since it wasn't crucial to the storyline, FanPro decided to leave it up to GMs. System Failure gives GMs the basics to handle this as they want. The (canon) end result is identical (and detailed in SF and SR4).

Omer Joel

Oct 10 2005, 03:40 PM

Post #20

Moving Target

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Cali is extremely weak and looking to get some savior loving. :love: So what if the Pueblo have their hooks into that salt-water marsh of LA. If a foothold can be made in the rest then two front pressure can be brought on them to later to bring LA back in the fold.

Do not underestimate the Metahumans of liberated California - they aren't going to repeat Calfree's terrible mistake of inviting the Japanese to "their help" after their secsession. And after finally getting rid of Saito's tyranny, they aren't likely to sit quitely and watch another tyrant step all over their land, to say the least.

On the other hand, the CAS would probably be able to unite with the UCAS without any major violence, especially against an external threat (Aztlan, the NAN, Calfree-inspired Metahuman guerillas or something else). Unification will also annul any existing export/import tariffs between the nations, which will be quite profitable to the smaller corps (the larger ones don't play them IIRC if they are extraterritorial).

Just my two :nuyen:.

Eagle View Member Profile	Oct 10 2005, 04:14 PM Post #21
Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,679	I'm actually thinking that it might be a megacorporation next: Horizon. The reasoning is partly based on what happened to ConsOp spies (pg 22 SoTA:2064). It basically says that a lot of ConsOps spies are linked to the unity movement and have found work in the media and all of a sudden a new media company springs up in North America. Unity now controls the NA media and spin machines, how better to advance their cause.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Oct 10 2005, 04:37 PM Post #22
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	i dont know why but this is the single issue with the recent development of SR that seems to rub me the wrong way...

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Oct 10 2005, 05:43 PM Post #23
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	Frankly, I think that the CAS will be next, but don't think that the revolution is only working within the UCAS. You have noticed that the Pueblo annexed the Ute, and the Salish have occupied the Tsimshain. Those two events have started to reverse the trend of north american balkanization more that getting a member of the conspiracy elected president of one nation has done. Watch for non-violent political reunification movements to spring up in both the CAS and UCAS states. Additionally, Look for more people in the NAN arguing for NAN unification. Granted, if the NAN unified, and the UCAS and CAS unified, they would have to fight. But if the Conspiracy is entrenched in both sides, then the one they want to win will probably win. Either that, or they'll let it run it's course, and then stage a coup in the nation that wins.

SL James

Oct 30 2005, 08:06 AM

Post #24

Shadowrun Setting Nerd

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

i dont know why but this is the single issue with the recent development of SR that seems to rub me the wrong way...

Because for a group of writers who seem to insist on "realism" they managed to completely fumble the situation.

Let's start with the obvious. The New Revolution went from a coordinated terrorist operation to effectively controlling not just large parts of the UCAS military, but as the Game Information suggests large parts of the militaries of many or most of the North American countries with no explanation for how that happened.

When the counterinsurgency "wins," there is no massive (and *ahem* integrated into the rest of the book or SR4) purge of the militaries, security services and general populace.

Likewise, there is no ongoing insurgency ongoing in the UCAS or any other country to any appreciable amount (aside from the Haida taking over Tsimshian) past November 3. Apparently like all video game and James Bond anonymous henchmen, the revolutionaries on the ground just gave up when they "lost." They especially did so even though they "lost" because of betrayal within at least part of the leadership, which benefited someone who they all apparently secretly deferred to "because." In a stunning feat of unity, there are apparently no factions in the New Revolution.

And on that note, the civilian counterinsurgency and popular resistance melted away into the shadows to let the governments which just proved that they were so incompetent that they let their militaries be usurped by terrorists go back to governing (note, this may not be true in Sioux. TT is a total mystery, but I bet there's a Great Dragon and/or Immortal Elf or two involved).

Why did they kidnap Haeffner and kidnap (and kill) SecDef Stratta to invade the NAN when they had overtaken at least parts of it already? If they were that deeply entrenched and involved, they would have already ensured the Continuity of Government in the UCAS and elsewhere they wanted, and taken care of it without involving either man.

Let's not also make any leaps or questions which apparently no one anywhere asked, such as:

Why was Maj. Gen. Colloton in DeeCee during the Crash?
Why was a two-star general made the Commanding General for the UCAS's entire counterinsurgency?
Why did said general make--alone, mind you--the announcement from the White House?
How did the militaries become usurped?
How did the security services become usurped?
How did the intelligence agencies become usurped?
How did those that were not, and those people who were not, miss the kind of warnings that would cause most people in such positions to be running around "with their hair on fire?"
What, if any, role did Ares Macrotechnology and/or Knight Errant have given its involvement in the Sioux and UCAS governments before the coup?
Where there any, and if so, how effective were the "Oh, my God. How did this happen?" Committees/Commissions/Boards/Panels/Criminal Investigations/Etc.
Noting one very likely failure, how did they not miss X's or Y's involvement?

Finally, and you can ask others about how this specific thing drove me batshit crazy all week:

Maj. Gen. Colloton made an announcement declaring that the UCAS counterinsurgency was victorious within hours (which is pretty impressive, BTW). All suspicions and acknowledgements by certain freelancers aside, in this speech lauding the victory of the government over an insurgency and rebellion which tore the UCAS and other North American countries apart (at least for a few hours), this women who was smart enough, ambitious enough and ruthless enough to become a Major General, to command JTF Seattle, to ostensibly backstab the other coup leaders, to cover her ass so thoroughly is she was involved that no one has caught onto it a year/year and a half into her Administration, and generally became a national hero overnight does something embarrassingly and politically unconscionably as give the speech she did. She did not evoke Abraham Lincoln, did not quote from the Gettysburg Address or his Second Inaugural or any of his speeches on the matter of the sacrifice of securing the nation against a rebellion. She didn't evoke imagery of Shays' Rebellion or the Whiskey Rebellion, acts that helped Washington's career and justified the more powerful federal government the Confederation could not produce.

She steals Ed Harris' quoting of Thomas Jefferson from The Rock, and didn't even have the decency to add Sean Connery's clever little retort where he quoted Oscar Wilde.

No one as savvy as she clearly is would do something so stupid, and so inappropriate as quote that line to justify the success and announce the victory of a counterinsurgency. It's a great line, perfect even, to justify your having engaged in a massive multinational coup. It evokes the sacrifice, attacks the status quo, and just sounds patriotic (So patriotic even that Timothy McVeigh had a neat little t-shirt with the quote printed on the front [with a dripping tree backdrop, IIRC]).

Please explain to this lowly student of government and history and political thought how the quote, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" has anything to do with counterinsurgency and putting down a rebellion. Who were the patriots? Who were the tyrants? The terrorists? How do terrorists become tyrants when they never actually controlled the government because at least part of it was fighting them? I mean, did anyone at Fanpro even have an understanding of the context from where that quote comes from? When, where, what preceded and followed it? Did anyone seriously believe that years later no one would ask, no one would think that it made no sense for the commanding general of the counterinsurgency to take a quote which espoused the cyclical razing of government by the people and put it into a speech declaring government's victory? Did you think so little of the people of Shadowrun, of us, the consumers?

Did you think? Or did it just sound cool when Ed Harris said it?

Blue eyes View Member Profile	Oct 30 2005, 10:26 AM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-July 04 From: Arhus, Denmark & Paris, France Member No.: 6,516	I hope and pray that this silly storyline/plot stop right here and now. Just because certain players cant accept what has happend to the US in Shadowrun, i hope the writers wont buckle under the pressure.... lol its not realistic that the US i no longer... Well none of the nations will hopefully join UCAS again, it would ruin the interesting setup we have now, and seriously peeps i dont see the native americans wanting to fuse with UCAS after what has happen lol, neither any of the other nations. Besides UCAS has its hands full getting itself up and running... So heres a plea to the writers behind the game, dont let this very silly idea continue, keep north america as splintered as it is and please dont bow to pressure of gamers that cant handle that the us is around anymore ty :)

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