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> SR4 and the Evolving Character, AKA Advanced Characters over 200 Karma
SimpleRunner
post Sep 7 2005, 01:41 AM
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I plan to play with the numbers and see exactly when a character reaches the pinnacle of their career. After running 5 sessions of SR4 with various character builds and concepts I have found that the system has very defined limits. But after seeing these characters created, what is going to happen during the duration of say 2 years of game play?

In SR2 and SR3 stats and skills along with Magic at various force levels made it possible to hang the carrot in front of the characters. In SR4 (the assortment of skills, skill groups and stats all having hard caps, essence only malleable via the various grades of the wares but limited further by bioware) what is the Prize for getting up there?
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Spookymonster
post Sep 7 2005, 01:43 AM
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Wouldn't that be where the advanced rulebooks come into play?
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 7 2005, 01:56 AM
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Essence is actually much less of a cap now than it was in SR3. While Bio-index is gone, the fact that a character's essence loss from Bioware or Cyberware is halved means that in essence any character can have 4 Essence of Cyberware or Bioware, and then 3.99999 Essence worth of the other at the same time. That means that every character can have nearly 8 Essence worth of crap in their bodies without even going to zero.

And the new reduced essence costs and capacity rules make it so that you can have as much cyberware as you really want to have. Heck, if you got yourself a cyberbody (4 limbs, torso, skull), you'd have so much capacity available that you couldn't actually make use of it all until the Augmentation book comes out. And that's all on about 3 Essence if you get it Delta.

So no, there isn't any problem with lack of extensibility with Street Sammies. Bioware can be made delta grade in this edition, so at the limit of infinite money you can max out your initiative bonuses on less than a single essence point.

No, the problem isn't that you run out of essence to spend - the problem is that the basic book doesn't have enough things to spend your essence on! Of course, Augmentation is going to be an entirely separate book that will have new things to spend Essence on, so once that hits I imagine that the Cyborgs can jolly well continue to amass :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: and sicki it into their bodies for as long as you own your car.

Now, a mundane really does come into the hard limit of things to spend their Karma on. Once all your stats are at 6, and you have raised your high value skills up to 6, and specialized them all - that's it. You aren't allowed to buy anything else. For a slickly designed character that could be as few as 521 Karma - which could correspond to less than 2 years with weekly play.

-Frank
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SimpleRunner
post Sep 7 2005, 02:29 AM
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Missed that detail of Bioware being able to be Delta grade specs... interesting...

As for advanced books they can't came out soon enough for me... Still though will look to see where the point of value drops off. Just need to know if I have a campain that runs 20-45 sessions over will the characters have bewen recylceled over that time frame or what. The example of 512 Karma over 2 years is good, just want to check on my own and see.
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Ravennus
post Sep 7 2005, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Heck, if you got yourself a cyberbody (4 limbs, torso, skull), you'd have so much capacity available that you couldn't actually make use of it all until the Augmentation book comes out. And that's all on about 3 Essence if you get it Delta.

As far as capacity, this just isn't true. In fact, I find cyberlimbs to be even more useless in SR4.

Have you taken a look at the tables for cyberlimb capacities and accessories on page 336 and 337?

First of all, EVERY cyberlimb starts at 3 for all it's attribute ratings. It doesn't matter if it's for a human or a troll. As an Orc fresh out of chargen with an 8 Body, 4 Agility and 7 Strength...would take 10 capacity (1 for each point) out of 15 capacity just to buy them up to the rest of your meat bodies stats. Oh! That's also if you ignore the availability restriction, since it's attribute bonusX3 and a +5 body on the limb would come to 15 availability.
Wait folks, there's more!! You would also be REQUIRED to buy a cybertorso, since you can't raise an attribute on the limb higher than +3 without it.

Did I mention that you also need to buy up the physical stats on a fraggin' cybertorso if you want your attributes to even out? (Check out the cyberlimb example text on page 335)
That means...the most you should raise your attributes on all your limbs is in any combination of 10 capacity worth (the total capacity of an obvious cybertorso). Reason being, you have to average the stats together with the lower rated torso, which makes it almost pointless. Strange, since they call cybertorsos and cyberskulls 'shells' instead of true replacements (on the very same page).
Oh, btw....armor costs 2 capacity per point, so good luck fitting that in.

I haven't even got to the various accessories you can add in...
Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?

As you can see, even buying up the attributes on a cyberlimb to match your meat body will fill up most of your limb's capacity. There are also definate limits on how high you can enhance the attributes.

Don't even get me started on synthetic cyberlimbs...half capacity I can understand, but at how much room it takes to enhance a limb to comparable levels, it makes them useless. Oh, and synthetic cyberlimbs seem to have taken a swan dive in detectability. They are easily spotted, and are automatically discovered with a simple touch.

Hey, and what's with the cyberskull having an availability of 16!? That's higher than most milspec boom-boom in the book. Tell me what advantage does someone get when purchasing one, other than looking like a total freak? Umm...4 capacity (obvious) to cram in some extra headware? Whoopee.
This is just another example of stupidly high availability ratings put onto an item so it simply can't be bought in chargen, often times just because of flavor or because the writers didn't like the possible combination with other items.
Apparently, Fanpro didn't want any fully cyberbodied characters walking out of chargen, even if they were willing to be drastically ineffective compared to characters using other cyberware and bioware.

Additionally, grades of cyberware don't change how much you can fit in a limb, or how much capacity a certain piece of 'ware takes up. Plus, how often do shadowrunners in most campaigns (I know yours might be the exception) live long enough to afford (and find) deltaware? Not often, I'll betchya. Even if you did manage it, the 3.125 essence spent would still leave you with little room for other useful things like wired reflexes. What you say? Synaptic Accelerator? Oh, sorry....your whole body is cyber, that excludes you from having any bioware (pg. 335, though I guess you could get some work done on the brain). Technically, it also states you can't get any cyberware that has an essence cost but no capacity cost. That means you are out of luck for even purchasing wired reflexes.

I find it very strange that miniaturization is so rampant in 2070 (e.g.-contact lenses with built-in smartlink and other vision enhancements) and yet cyberlimbs can barely live up to an unmodified natural arm without running out of room.

This REALLY needs to be looked at in the errata.

Meanwhile with my group, I will be removing all the capacity costs for attribute enhancements (and maybe armor) to limbs. You are simple buying a more powerful limb model. Also, cyberlimbs are available that scale to your metatype (an Ork cyberarm starts with 6 body and 5 strength instead of 3 to each). A cybertorso will only be required once you have increased the limb's attribute past the normal racial maximum. I will keep most of the availability ratings, except for cybertorsos and cyberskulls, which will both be 6 (2 more than standard cyberlimb, so still a bit harder to find). Some of the capacity ratings of accessories will also be reworked, but not too much, since attribute enhancements won't be taking extra room now. Oh, and synthetic cyberlimbs are much harder to spot (depending on grade, as well). All higher grade limbs will also get slightly more capacity, as the accessories are better miniaturized (though they have to be bought at the same grade, per the rules).

Keeping the availability limit on attribute enhancements (+4 max, at 12 avail), this should make things much more reasonable and still fair.
A full cyborg still won't come close to competing with a min-maxed cyber/bio sammie out of chargen (or an adept, for that matter), but the possibility to later make up the difference in upgrades is there if you have a lot of nuyen and connections to a high-class doctor/clinic. Also, this is one more small step to 'GitS' cyborgs, which I was hoping for in this edition.

I really don't understand FASA/Fanpro's fear and loathing of full cyborgs, which IMHO are an integral part of a proper cyberpunk setting, but it is definitely there.
In fact, they seem to be trying to phase cyberlimbs completely out of the picture.
Check out this quote from the first paragraph on cyberlimbs...
QUOTE
pg.335 SR4.... In today's world of streamlined bioware, the use of cyberlimbs is sometimes viewed as crude and outdated.  On the other hand, they are cheap to service and upgrade, so in the end they became even more popular for the less fortunate.

I know that some cyberpunk games take the powerlevel of cyborgs a little too far, but in a setting like Shadowrun... I really don't see that being a problem. We have powerful mojo-slingers, adepts, trolls, and bioware.
In fact, I think a full cyborg would make an interesting and playable 'archetype' of it's own. *shrug*

Anyway, that's my 2 :nuyen: , and then some.
Sorry for the rant, but it's really been on my mind lately. Please don't take it personally... it's not a flame by any means. Your comment just set me in motion! :talker:

-Ravennus :cyber:

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Phoniex
post Sep 7 2005, 10:13 AM
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While i agree with some of what you said ravennus. I still think that now cyber replacement is much more friendly and useful than in 3rd edition. I mean I have already made a borg in 4th and i am very happy with how it came out, you could not do the same in 3rd edition without deltaware/insane amounts of money and no avail. cap. Yes, trolls and orcs can get the shaft when you replace their whole bodies, but the quick and easy fix is to sell troll average ware to trolls and if some idiot human wants orc or troll ware give them a constant penality because of it. Say -1 die for every attribute difference between the ware and your body.

But, this system works much better than the old and there is now a reason to get cyber arms/legs other than having them blown off and getting replacements.

No its not perfect across the meta types, but its light years beyond what we had so i am content, for now.

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morlock76
post Sep 7 2005, 10:28 AM
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The biggest "problem" with a full borg would be that he (it) cant spend karma on physical attributes aka. reaches the "cap" even quicker then a bio / cyber sam.
Also the advantages bioware give are totally left out, which is a big downside.

I think the version of going full borg as race would make much more sense there.

Given the nature of the cyberlimbs, even if you buff em, partial limbs are uber and full ones just blow.

On my char I went for a lower arm and basically spend .15 more essence then before but got a "free" gyro and ultrasound.

Essence isnt so much a limiting factor (in the beginning) then it used to be, cash is way more of an issue.

Guess we have to convert the CP rules to SR4 now, but no news there.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 7 2005, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE (SimpleRunner @ Sep 7 2005, 03:41 AM)
In SR2 and SR3 stats and skills along with Magic at various force levels made it possible to hang the carrot in front of the characters. In SR4 (the assortment of skills, skill groups and stats all having hard caps, essence only malleable via the various grades of the wares but limited further by bioware) what is the Prize for getting up there?

Even in SR4, there is always YAUS (yet another useful skill) to stuff karma into - especially when trying to get the one 7 afterwards... Attributes are quite a karma sink, too.

Even when starting with 500 BP and distributing about 700 Karma, there is still room, as well as 'need' to grow.
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fistandantilus4....
post Sep 7 2005, 11:04 AM
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yeah, but my beef with it is that eventually all of your "YAUS" can eventaully all be taken , and maxed. Be as good as is possible at every skill! That's jsut bull. Having one character that can literally do everything at the absolute peak of metahuman ability.

The sole exception I see to this is initiation, which, eventaully ,puts adepts and mages beyond everyone again , unless they capped that too at some point.
"sorry, initiates can only go up to grade 6 now. Have a nice day!"

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 7 2005, 11:48 AM
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Well, that point was there in SR3, too... not capped, though, but when you hit 8 in everything, it was just as strange.

The point of awakened (including technomancers) of not having any cap in SR4 is disturbing, though.
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The Jopp
post Sep 7 2005, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (Ravennus)
QUOTE

Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?



After reading the description for the Cyberarm Slide it says it has "total concealment". If that is the case then it is basically a cyberholster with a built in slide since a gun is usually attached to it, and that explains the capacity cost.
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Ravennus
post Sep 7 2005, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (Ravennus)
QUOTE

Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?



After reading the description for the Cyberarm Slide it says it has "total concealment". If that is the case then it is basically a cyberholster with a built in slide since a gun is usually attached to it, and that explains the capacity cost.

I was thinking the same thing, but the wording is so vague that I'm not sure that it's talking about total concealment of the weapon or just concealment of the slide itself.

As far as it being possible to make a total borg out of chargen, yes...it's finally possible, though you have to fudge the rules a bit on the availability of the cyberskull.
However, I still honestly believe that a 'borg out of chargen is at a total disadvantage compared to other sammies and combat adepts. Especially when it comes to reflexes. Also, it's still ridiculous that it costs 9 capacity just to bring a limb up to the normal racial max on all three physical attributes. Heck, there's not even enough room in some synthetic cyberlimbs to do that. We aren't even talking about the modified max yet, of which other sammies can easily (and cheaply) push using other cyberware and bioware.

That's a whole lot of work, essence, and nuyen just to make a cyborg body that's comparable to a well-built natural (meta)human body. Sure, it's possible now, and those of us that just want the chance to RP a full conversion borg will do it... but in my mind, the cost is just too high.

-Ravennus
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The Jopp
post Sep 7 2005, 02:47 PM
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What's the stupidity with cyberlimbs in general? Basically ALL other cyberware has had a boost in tech level but for some reason cyberlimbs has not had an advancement since shadowrun 2050'ish. After twenty years of technological advancement no improvement on the essence cost of cyberlimbs or miniaturization of cyberlimb implants, or even integrated wireless/DNI connections for all kinds of cybernetics (ok, the latter might arrive in later books).

Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

If they had put the price on a cyberlimb at 1500Y then i could have understood it, or lowered the availability to zero (yes, zero on the cyberskull as well...availability 16 is just silly)

On another note:

A limousine is usually pretty hard to get, they don't churn it out from factories by the truckload, they build one when someone wants it, they don't flood the market with it. How many riggers will drive around in a limousine for measly 20K...

Ok, compared to the stepvan it ain't so impressive but how can a luxury vehicle be cheaper than a glorified delivery van?

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mmu1
post Sep 7 2005, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 10:47 AM)
Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.
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The Jopp
post Sep 7 2005, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 10:47 AM)
Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.

Well let's add the points we have to use for contacs, those were covered by ones resources in SR3. In SR4 they can become pretty expensive after a few contacts. Let's say 5 points apiece, that's the equivalent of 25K for each contact.
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blakkie
post Sep 7 2005, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
Well let's add the points we have to use for contacs, those were covered by ones resources in SR3. In SR4 they can become pretty expensive after a few contacts. Let's say 5 points apiece, that's the equivalent of 25K for each contact.

So are you now talking about building Robo-Face?
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The Jopp
post Sep 7 2005, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.



Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.
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blakkie
post Sep 7 2005, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 11:11 AM)
Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.

So basically completely tangent and unrelated to cyberlimbs topic?
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The Jopp
post Sep 7 2005, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 11:11 AM)
Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.

So basically completely tangent and unrelated to cyberlimbs topic?

I think you misunderstand what I responded to, read what MMU1 wrote and my response to it. (see below)

-------------
"The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician..."
-------------

In SR3 your resources INCLUDED your contacts since you bought them with your money, in SR4 you use points to buy your contacts, hence the calculation of using 1/8 of SR4 Build points for resources is slightly flawed compared to SR3 since that 1/4 include a big chunk of comparable BP in character contacts for SR4.

(It DID step away a bit from cyberlimbs but i wanted it clarified)
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blakkie
post Sep 7 2005, 08:35 PM
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Thus my reference to Robo-Face. A highly connected face character normally wasn't a chromed to the nuts character, basically because the SR3 chargen system didn't really allow it. In SR4 if you are going all out on the cash AND contacts then you are using the chargen's flexibility it didn't really have in SR3. Likely using it to hang your character by starving it for BP elsewhere, but that is separate from the drop in gear prices.
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Kyoto Kid
post Sep 7 2005, 09:04 PM
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Back to the main topic

My character namesake (even after the hits she would take during conversion), would basically now be retired at the venerable age of 22. She is pretty much at the limit, for attributes and skills pertinent to her profession (Way of the Athlete Physad) Since she is Awakened she is not very prone to dumping a lot of ware in her body (she has some minimal Bio - Enhanced Articulation 2 levels of muscle tone). She has her bonded Weapon Focus an Adept focus, and an infusion focus (Mystic Armour 4)

Yeah, there is that Karma Sink known as Initiation, but if the Modified limit of 1.5 also applies to her magic attribute (haven't seen anything about this yet since the book still has not shown up) she is already a couple of levels above that. As an adept she is also more limited in Metamagic offerings (Masking, Centering, and Infusion being the most useful talents, that is if they still exist) which along with the added power point would be the only reason to keep initiating.

THis is a character who has been around for several years (and two conversions already). Though she is basically a Prime runner, under SR3 there was still room to grow, still things to improve. Under the SR4 limits she is basically done, gone as far as she could go in her profession.

I agree with one of the earlier posts to this thread. When a character gets to her proscribed limits, there really isn't much left to do without going out of the bounds of her concept. In that light one may just as well start a new character and retire the old one. I am beginning to see this as being too finite, and just another "brick in the wall" so to say, to keep going with SR3. in spite of its inconsistencies.
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blakkie
post Sep 7 2005, 09:21 PM
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There is nothing about Grade limits. Awakened are still open ended, even though the openning was tightened a bit by increasing effective karma costs for raising Magic (while actually making that Magic in some ways do more, at least for casters/conjurers).

Also the meta-magics so far seem to be a bit more supportive of Adepts, although you'll have to wait for Street Magic to prove that out. The Mentor Spirit options (aka Totems) certainly are more Adept friendly/useful, so your Adept could look into those.

P.S. You also might want to relook at exactly what the numbers are for converting that PC, because if you are bringing them straight across that is a mistake. But overall i think that allowing some sort of [karma intensive] way to boost Skills and Attrs needs to be address.
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snowRaven
post Sep 7 2005, 09:32 PM
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Lesse... we'll take the standard Street Samurai from SR4. Assume he spent his nuyen on lots of neat toys - the specifics there aren't important.

What's the most important stats for a street sam?

B 4 to 6 = 33 karma
A 5 to 6 = 18 karma
R 4 to 6 = 33 karma
S 5 to 6 = 18 karma
I 3 to 6 = 45 karma
W 3 to 6 = 45 karma

192 karma.

Spend another 192 karma on skills, and the only thing left is to expand into other areas, or learn new weapons (unnecessary most of the time).

Meaning, a street sam caps in his field of work around 400 karma, and even long before that (around 200) he will have capped his most important skills and stats.

Not to mention, at that point he will be as accomplished as any legendary Prime Runner in his field.


Of course, the upside to this is that PC runners will fairly quickly be the Argent's, FastJack's, Talon's, and such of their world...

The drawbacks are that eventually they will all be very similar (all attributes 6, most important running skills 6), separated only by their race, and what 'wares or magic they chose.

We'll avoid munchkins though :grinbig:
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Chandon
post Sep 24 2005, 05:42 PM
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What about letting mundanes with 100+ karma buy up their essence and/or buy a bonus to a single skill group...?
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Xenith
post Sep 24 2005, 07:03 PM
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Raise caps for characters a bit, but require alot of effort for both the character and player. A quest of sorts to find a guru for that particular skill. And don't allow a character to raise a skill without the teacher.

I allow this up to a rating of 9 (10 with aptutude). Which isn't as scary as you might think versus npcs of skill even two points lower. Then again, main stats are more expensive too. :)
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