Player Actions and Consequences, ...or, when characters do stupid things Options

[Faenor]

hello everyone. longtime reader, first time poster

I've been GMing a third ed shadowrun game for approx. 6 months now, and most of the characters are fairly dynamic; we have an Irish mage who uses her magic for forensic work; she used to do forensics for the Star. We have a private investigator with a contact for every situation who left the force to due him being scape goated for a scandal. We also have a japanese phys ad who attempts spiritual and martial perfection through conflict and peace (it's a long story).

And certainly, we of course have the cold-blooded Magician's Way adept who's idea of negotiation is sticking a gun barrel down someone's throat by the name of Dante (from Devil May Cry: the video game).

Essentially, Dante's player screwed up royally. while trying to find someone in a ten story walk up, he was ambushed by a gang to off him. He then proceeds to tell me that he unslings his MGL-12 grenade launcher and start putting rounds down the hallway. after a heated exchange, three of the five gangers are dead, and he's at one point away from a deadly wound. His Doc Wagon bracelet goes off, and he's picked up. Next thing he knows, he's under arrest on federal weapons charges with intent to kill. Multiple weapons charges. Because he has several assault rifles at home, along with several LAW rockets and security armor. I essentially said that he had to make a new character because his current character would be spending the next fifty years in a prison cell hooked up to a simsense rig through his brand new shiny datajack.

My question is: Was I too harsh on this player? If you had the same scenario, how would you have handled it? Or would you let the other characters make a run to try and bust him out (which I doubt they would do, the rest of the group was excited to get a level one weapon focus which they gave to the phys ad because he can attack spirits more effectively)

Thoughts? Ideas? Munitions?

[fistandantilus4....]

my only question is, why would DocWagon turn in a paying customer? Was it obvious to everyone that he was the 'perp'? I mean, he is paying the man awful lot of :nuyen: . And since he lived, that's good advertising. If they turn him in on the other hand, that's really bad advertising for all of their runner clients.

[Faenor]

My main thought would be that since he was taken to a hospital, they'd report the large ordinance. I'd also like to mention that this was a nicer part of town that he did this in. Plus, all the people in the apartment building fingered him as "that crazy bastard who started blowing the place to high hell!" (He took the Distinctive flaw)
Just as modern police procedure states that the hospital has to report any gunshot wounds, it made sense that that policy would be held onto in this era as well.

[fistandantilus4....]

Then I'd say go with it on the grounds of the distinctive flaw. Doc Wagon (IIRC) is extraterritorial, and doesn't have to hand anyone over (although no reason that LS coulnd't stake the place out). But sounds like he was (very) reckless, and got what he deserved really.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Remember, however. DocWagon is a Corp, I'm not sure what they're rated, but I'd be damned surprised if they didn't have Extraterritoriality. And once he's on their soil, he's on their jurisdiction, and they don't have to tell the Star anything.


That said, anyone stupid enough to whip out a grenade launcher in a building gets what he gets.

[toturi]

It is not stupid if that is the only thing he can do. Anytime you do an ambush as a GM, you must know that you are going to kill a PC unless he is very good or very lucky. There is no such thing as a "challenging but survivable" ambush. Since the end result is still a "dead" PC, I think you accomplished what you set out to do.

[fistandantilus4....]

[eidolon]

[toturi]

[fistandantilus4....]

still waiting for Faenor to reply and clarify

[Wintermancer]

For my two cents, I don't think DocWagon would turn a client over the the authorities, no matter how many people fingered him. They would probably patch him up in that extraterritorial DocWagon facility, keep the authorities at bay by basically going, "Yeah, we know, we know... But hey, we have to provide the service he asked us for so, we'll let you know when he's on the streets again so you can pick him up--But you're not coming in here, sorry, but we can't let you violate our extraterritorial rights."

Then, when he's better, they'd let him go.

Give him a few days head start, to keep a paying client on the streets.

Then call up the star and tell them their fugitive is on the loose, and happy hunting.

Winter

[fistandantilus4....]

that's what I was thinking . That's WM for filling that thought out a bit more.

[Herald of Verjig...]

My first question is how did the Star get his home address to scour it for heavy munitions?

For the most part I agree with the "DocWagon will patch him up and tell the cops when he's fair game again" method. Just give him a "Hunted: Lone Star" flaw based on the degree of collateral damage. Low if it's just property damage, medium if there were some bystander injuries, high if there were critically injured bystanders (anything that requires hospitalized lifestyle to heal or can't heal, such as death).

[nezumi]

Totori, I didn't get that sense from reading surprise rules. In this case, the gangers would roll their reaction against a TN of 2, and the PC would roll against a TN of 4.

In this particular case the ambush might or might not be survivable. Presumably these gangers are, well, gangers. Armor no higher than 5/3, likely using Preds and shotguns. They likely don't have much in the way of cyber. Given that the PC is a combat monster, I'd give him more than a fair chance of surviving, especially since we know the guy is carrying GRENADE LAUNCHERS. I don't throw a lot of ambushes at my group, but I think they could survive them. The people who look dangerous have the reaction to back it up, the people who don't tend to pack lots of armor. Only an ambush with a group of foes of equal or greater skill would be a guaranteed kill.

As for this case... What rating was the zone? It has gangers, so I'd guess C? MAYBE B? Why didn't anyone call the cops on him before, when they saw him walking down the street with a grenade launcher?

I would guess there was a more than reasonable chance that someone saw him on the way from his car to the apartment building, and someone called the cops before the battle even started. If they saw gangers wandering around, they'd have been on their toes anyway, and seeing military hardware means he'll be spotted in no time and reported in.

You know the situation better than I do, but consider the following:
-Police were likely called BEFORE the gun battle. Drones are the first responders, and they get pictures. A few patrol cars would have approached later, but given the report, would have waited for more support.

-Either the guy left his vehicle there (in which case there's an orgy of evidence right there) or he had a long hike (which means cops would've been more ready for him - more pictures, more backup, and more likely to intercept him *BEFORE* docwagon. In this case, they'll likely shoot to kill. He has military hardware, after all.)

-If the cops got there before docwagon, you could simply say 'I was wrong. Remember when you got on that bus in Redmond? Someone called the cops on you. And you remember when I said it was a docwagon chopper that came and picked you up? It was Lone Star, and they sniped/manabolted your butt.'

-Now tie in pictures, video, a car, any left behind gear and casings, etc. plus what the cops already had. Any chance any of it would lead back to his apartment? If so, that's a stake-out right there. This guy is clearly a threat. Put a drone outside and watch his comings and goings. A $9k strato-9 drone is a cheap investment, and it'll tell the star where to find him next time he wanders out of the barrens.

As has been pointed out, doc wagon wouldn't turn him over. But you're certainly right that he's earned his fate.

[mmu1]

Just to elaborate on something nezumi touched on - did you actually let this guy walk around pretty much unhindered with a grenade launcher?

If so, then it's not entirely reasonable to expect him to know better than to use it in an apartment building, because he's already getting away with something that's generally only going to be possible in video games or action movies.

If he was as careless as you imply, he should have had Lone Star on his ass long before he got to fire the damn thing.

[toturi]

The guy is a Magician way adept. So unless he has a Increase Reaction spell or Increase Reflexes power, he is on par with the gangers. Also those TNs are before any modifiers are applied. Granted that the mods could go either way, but in an ambush situation, it is often the ambusher that stacks the mods, not the ambushee.

[Dawnshadow]

Magician's Way Adepts can have obscene reaction scores without going into ultra-high end campaigns. Just depends on the build.

Quite possible to have double digit reaction.

3 pp: increase reflexes 2
quick, int at 6.

Reaction 10, right there. Still leaves 3 power points for magic power, or 2 and 1 for other adept powers. Geas as required.

[Ryu]

I think that guy PROVED his ability to survive said encounter.

The MGL-6 looks close enough to a heavy pistol to pass as one for a casual observer. Until the first shot at least.

And if DocWagon does not protect its customers from LoneStar that should be said clearly at the beginning of the game. He would have been better of trying to flee from the star rather than beeing captured by helpers he pays the bill for.

Edit: Can´t write.

[Mugzug]

Did I miss something?

How does Doc Wagon have extra-territoriality? I am pretty sure only AAA corporations holding a seat on the corporate court could have that...

[Lindt]

No Mug, a defining factor of a AA is its ability to have extra-territoriality.

[Mugzug]

Ah well with that cleared up...

Lonestar still could have had the runner. Even with extra territoriality they still have to obey laws while inside the Greater Seattle Area. With grenades going off, in a reasonably high secure area I am sure a whole slew of panic button alarms would go off.

The star would respond pretty fast (even if you are flexible on what it says in New Seattle on response times). Doc Wagon might be there first, but they may not. Even if they do arrive first, Lone Star officers may not be far beyond them. All they'd have to do is arrive before the 'victim' is physically in the Doc Wagon ambulance and the LS has them.

Even then in a high security area like that they'd be able to analyze security cameras, passing traffic drones, etc, and figure out who it is. Failing that DNA evidence, hair samples, and a forensic team would find something to match it to the 'perp.'

The trick to avoiding the Star in a place like a reasonably secure area is silencers, or just not getting into trouble in the first place.


Now how do you take a guy in prison and put him out into the real world once more?

Lone Star has a 'shadow division’, which might recruit, out of prison with some psychotropic or blackmail inducement to ensure loyalty. They also offer experiments in jail and if you survive, you get time off.

Another option is that the runner is forced to be a Street Snitch. A cortex bomb, a virus which needs specially tailored antibiotics on a periodic basis, or even psychotropic conditioning are all possibilities.

My favorite would be giving him Judas psychotropic conditioning and releasing him from jail (without telling the player about the Judas part). To make it seem realistic the star might engineer a prison break, or offer the runner an out through an experiment if they survive. The experiment could just be a 'water pill' that would be harmless, but keep your runner guessing. A side benefit would be that he doesn't guess about the reality of the situation. Meanwhile he leaves behind clues to Lone Star without even realizing it thanks to the Judas conditioning.

Soon he would find all of his contacts mysteriously disappearing. Johnsons would be suspicious of him double crossing them, and whenever they do a run the Star doesn't want... Well, they intervene.

[mmu1]

[nezumi]

I seem to recollect reading somewhere that DocWagon extraterritoriality extends something like twelve feet in every direction from their vehicle while responding to a call (but can't trump the extraterritoriality of the place they're going. So if the apartment building is under the ownership of say Ares, they're obliged to let KE get first dibs on him.) Since Seattle doesn't have extraterritoriality, if LS is all that's after you, once you're on the DW chopper, you're safe.

But I could be misremembering.

[Shadow]

It seems a little railroad'ish. But its believable. Theres always a way out, you could have the star seize all his stuff, cars, house etc. Then have a lawyer get him off on a technicality. Give him a 2 point police record flaw and let him back in the game.

I admit not everyone is as savvy as some of us, but lighting up with a GL in a enclosed space is pretty dumb. Let it be a learning experience for the guy and move on.

[Talia Invierno]

Also, just because extraterritoriality exists, it's not always in the interest of the corporation in question to enforce it at any and all costs. In the most extreme cases, DocWagon may well be willing to negotiate a transfer with Lone Star, not least because they not only don't compete, but in many cases are complementary services.

In the here-and-now we see approximate equivalents in the contexts of deliberately negotiated extradition and/or prosecution independent of what immunities might otherwise have existed. (International law is a gray area. Don't count on it to save your hide. And extrapolation of international law is what we're looking at here.)