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> Availability, How MUCH do you get?
Lord Ben
post Sep 7 2005, 09:53 PM
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I looked through and didn't see any rules for how much ammo/grenades or whatever you can get if you make the roll. Is there anything listed or is it pretty much up to the GM?
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mintcar
post Sep 7 2005, 10:00 PM
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I canīt even see how many rounds you get for the listed price.
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Lord Ben
post Sep 7 2005, 10:10 PM
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On top it says ammunition, per 10 shots. But can I buy 1000 rounds when I make the #?
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mintcar
post Sep 7 2005, 10:12 PM
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By the rules you should propably make a test for every 10 rounds then. But maybe your GM will just tell you how many are available. (You could always have every net hit on the test add another box of ammo, that seems tidy... ah ah ah. On second thought that thing will not work well with extended tests. Maybe raise the availability by 1 for every extra box of ammo? Now thatīs a tidy mechanic :))
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Lord Ben
post Sep 8 2005, 12:37 PM
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Another thing I was thinking about was looking at the total cost of the ammo order. Since the time's on the extened test are determined by price if you bought in bulk you'd have to make a roll every week instead of every 6 hours or whatever the exact times and price breaksoffs are.

Of course it's all limited to common sense too, there probably isn't 10,000 rounds of EX on the blackmarket anyhow!
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Crusher Bob
post Sep 8 2005, 12:40 PM
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Why not, the US has something like 2 billion stashed rounds of 5.56mm ammo. The stuff is made in staggering amounds, 10K rounds is nothing.
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Lord Ben
post Sep 8 2005, 12:52 PM
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Sure, but some ammo types like EX have a big availability. That should say that there isn't that much of it laying around accessable through the blackmarket.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that for unusual amounts there may be more background info or something. IE, a new running team gets dispatched to steal 10,000 rounds from a storehouse or something.
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wagnern
post Sep 8 2005, 04:41 PM
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The amount you get is inversly proportional to the trouble it causes for the GM.
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Lord Ben
post Sep 8 2005, 05:05 PM
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How is more ammo less trouble for the DM? I'd think he'd want to limit how much high EX ammo you get.
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Aku
post Sep 8 2005, 05:39 PM
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if i ever get to this situation in a game (each of my 4 tries so far has ended p being in a reset game starting the next week) i think, i will, within reason, allow bulk ordering on ammo. consider this, say you go to staples/walmart/best buy whoever, to order something online, as long as they have the quantity in stock, you'll be able to order 1/10/100 peices/boxes/whatever. However, if a player goes in saying "gimme everything you got" on a regular basis, well, the amount he's gonna have is gonna keep being reduced, drastically...
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blakkie
post Sep 8 2005, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Sep 8 2005, 11:05 AM)
How is more ammo less trouble for the DM?  I'd think he'd want to limit how much high EX ammo you get.

He means if the ammo type gives the DM headaches working around the 'runner is likely to find only small amounts available.
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OSUMacbeth
post Sep 8 2005, 05:43 PM
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With the new extended tests and the note about ten rounds, it seems quite clear that the devs intended for each ten rounds to count as a separate "item" this time around. I for one like this change, as it always annoyed me to see runners for whom AV rounds flowed like water.

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OSUMacbeth
post Sep 8 2005, 05:44 PM
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It should also be no problem to get decent amounts of rounds, since you can go to multiple contacts for the same item, and they're pretty likely to get it, eventually.

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blakkie
post Sep 8 2005, 05:49 PM
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Hehe, i remember when one of our GMs got annoyed with us cutting through opponents with LMGs. One day the weapon was lost/destroyed (in a legit way, not GM fiat). Well Ingram Valiants have a fairly low avail., so no problem?.....I think those damn things are STILL on backorder from "Mexico".**

** Yes i'm aware that Mexico doesn't exist anymore in SR, but i think that might have been sort of a hint that the GM was making. ;)
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Ryu
post Sep 8 2005, 09:50 PM
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What Aku said. Stop inventing rules for everything (My sympathy for the player thingy. You seem to deserve better).

And if something destroys gamebalance, donīt make it rare. Make it nonexistant.

Ammunition lottery should never be played for standard ammo, except were time is the deciding factor. And then its gm fiat and creating a sense of urgency (what? only 20? gimme!), not a dice roll.
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Corywn
post Sep 16 2005, 03:41 AM
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One thing I've never liked...

Ammo doesn't come in neat 5x2 boxes of 10 shots; at least so far as I'm aware. Personally, I'm inclined to suggest ~40 or 50 shots as a reasonable limit off of a single test.
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Sabosect
post Sep 16 2005, 04:27 AM
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The way I treat it depends on the ammo.

Regular: Got a semi trailor? You do? Well, hold on while we fill it up.

EX: Hmm. I've got about ten boxes of it. No, I can't sell it all to you at once. Come back in a week for the other half and hope it's here.

APDS: Hmm. I may have a couple boxes lying around somewhere... If anyone asks, you never got these from me.

Oh, and if you keep pulling out of a place with a semi-load of bullets, someone is bound to notice, become interested, and potentially take action.
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krishcane
post Sep 16 2005, 08:05 PM
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Generally, I think what limits manufacturing on bullets is not materials but just how fast the machines (or the people) can put out the bullets with good quality. It's a manufacturing assembly-line limit, not a materials limit. I mean, with the exception of depleted-uranium, the metals aren't terribly exotic and are used in cars as much as bullets -- obviously in MUCH larger quantities for cars. The powder... again not terribly rare stuff. That's why bullets are still cheap.

I've always made available as much as the players want... if the contact knows someone with a press for that type of bullet and who can get the materials, that contact can crank 'em out.

A case of 1000 AR bullets is only about the size of a suitcase, based on watching my friends buy at gun shows. If we call that 1 foot by 2 feet by 6 inches (ie. one cubic foot), then a billion bullets is a million cubic feet, which is about 200 feet x 200 feet x 25 feet high -- a moderately sized warehouse. Even a single room could easily hold a million bullets (1000 cubic feet, or 13 x 13 x 6).

I have friends in real life who keep two or three thousand bullets on hand just for their hobby shooting. Add some paranoia and shooting for a living, and I'm sure my characters would keep 10,000 bullets on hand, under the bed.

--K

Edit: It occurs to me that I would probably be disturbed if someone asked me for just 10 bullets. It's not enough to have a good time at the range or much of a hunting trip, so it can only be for killing someone later that evening.
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (krishcane)
...

Edit: It occurs to me that I would probably be disturbed if someone asked me for just 10 bullets. It's not enough to have a good time at the range or much of a hunting trip, so it can only be for killing someone later that evening.

I'd semi agree. And hunting? it depends. Most boxes of rifle ammunition come with 20 rounds. But most, decent or good hunters (and not nessicarily skill wise either) subscribe to the one shot one kill methodology where if you have to take that second shot you've already screwed up.

But yeah as far as handgun ammo....they come in boxes of 20-50 with 20 being the size of a box of home defense loads generaly (well the expensive ones) and 50 being about your standard box of pistol ammunition.
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krishcane
post Sep 16 2005, 08:52 PM
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I thought about that with the hunters... they may only use a few bullets on the trip, but I still imagine them carrying more than 10. Maybe though.

And maybe in a dark future, you could pick up bullets in one's and two's from a convenience bin at the Quickie-Mart for a nuyen each. "Cylinder half down from the walk home last night? Why not reload with 3 bullets and a Red Bull for only 5 nuyen!"

--K
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blakkie
post Sep 16 2005, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (krishcane)
I thought about that with the hunters... they may only use a few bullets on the trip, but I still imagine them carrying more than 10. Maybe though.

Depends on how much hunting you do with that weapon. If it's only for big game once or twice a year then you might carry a box of 20 plus what is in your clips if you aren't going that far from civilization. However if you normally only go through a few rounds/trip you'll have lots left over from the previous year that you'll only have to supplement your supply.
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (krishcane @ Sep 16 2005, 02:52 PM)
I thought about that with the hunters... they may only use a few bullets on the trip, but I still imagine them carrying more than 10.  Maybe though.

Depends on how much hunting you do with that weapon. If it's only for big game once or twice a year then you might carry a box of 20 plus what is in your clips if you aren't going that far from civilization. However if you normally only go through a few rounds/trip you'll have lots left over from the previous year that you'll only have to supplement your supply.

Well thats not entirely accurate. All depends on if you need to site your gun in first, and what type of gun you have. If its a shotgun you buy in packs of 5 slugs (or if you're buying the standard winchester x rifled slugs packs of 20). An you typicaly buy atleast 2 packs for sighting in and then as many from the same batch as possible so you don't have to sight in with new ammo every year.

As for rifles, same general principle, but ammunition comes in boxes of 20 generaly. And some people buy lots, some not so much. Remington 300 weatherby last time i was actualy selling it we had 2 boxes each being $41.99 a box. So you may not buy alot of ammo depending on how expensive the ammo was. Still people ushualy bought 2 boxes, or if it was late in the season 1. But in general 2, or you'd see them back in atleast once for more ammo.

And yes I sold guns and ammo for two years :)
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blakkie
post Sep 16 2005, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 16 2005, 03:17 PM)
Well thats not entirely accurate.  All depends on if you need to site your gun in first, and what type of gun you have.  If its a shotgun you buy in packs of 5 slugs (or if you're buying the standard winchester x rifled slugs packs of 20).  An you typicaly buy atleast 2 packs for sighting in and then as many from the same batch as possible so you don't have to sight in with new ammo every year.

As for rifles, same general principle, but ammunition comes in boxes of 20 generaly.  And some people buy lots, some not so much.  Remington 300 weatherby last time i was actualy selling it we had 2 boxes each being $41.99 a box.  So you may not buy alot of ammo depending on how expensive the ammo was.  Still people ushualy bought 2 boxes, or if it was late in the season 1.  But in general 2, or you'd see them back in atleast once for more ammo.

Ya, that's damn expensive ammo, and incidentally what i last used (haven't been out for big game in years). Winchester Mag with a 4x scope is a beautiful thing that makes even a below-par shooter like myself look good.

I would only use 4 to 5 shots at a used antifreeze bottle to confirm siting. That baby shoots so flat that the difference between 200 yards and 400 yards (as far out as i'm likely to be taking a shot) is maybe a couple inches.

Yes that is pretty bush league, and people with more skill are going to be more worried about the extra accuracy. I was writing that from a Joe Lunchbox POV. :)
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krishcane
post Sep 17 2005, 02:15 AM
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Yeah, but shadowrunner combat is rarely at 400 yards, or even 200 yards. It's rare for the 50 meter listed range for an SR pistol to actually become a limiting factor in the games I played. Only hunters and snipers (which I guess are the same thing) are shooting at those kinds of distances.

--K
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Lord Ben
post Sep 19 2005, 01:32 PM
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I suppose if a fixer knows a guy who makes it you could buy more. But I've always assumed this was stolen stuff from militaries.
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