Shadorun 4th Edition: Reinventing the wheel Options

[ChuckRozool]

I got a friend who posted this over at drivethrurpg.com

[Clyde]

When was this posted? It looks like a lot of the stuff we heard back before SR4 was released and all the stickies showed up here at Dumpshock. Overall, it sounds like the usual pissed off nerd stuff. Not to bash your friend, I do the pissed off nerd thing myself from time to time, but that's what it is.

[Kagetenshi]

Some items seem based on an incomplete reading of the material (magic 5 means max force 5? He then seems to imply that force=TN still, which is just wrong), and point 1 is completely batshit insane (changes for the sake of changes, sure. No meaningful changes?!?), but the rest I would largely agree with.

~J

[ChuckRozool]

Today actually...

He told me about it, so i figured i'd post it here where more ppl might see it and be able to comment on.

[hahnsoo]

It sounds to me like someone who not only didn't read the rules enough (there IS no Form-fit or Securetech armor in SR4, and there is a -1 dice pool penalty per subsequent attack on defense), but is still clinging onto some of the old SR2 mechanics like the Skill Web (which no longer exists in SR3). It also does not acknowledge the flaws of SR prior to SR4 that put off players in the first place. The fact that the majority of Man and Machine and Initiation rules made it into the BBB is a big step... you can actually run a long-term campaign using just the BBB, and SR4 fulfills that function well, without having to make an investment in several books just to play a usual SR game (in effect, SR3 was entrenched in the population willing to fork over the money). A technically written review that gets marks for grammar and spelling, but no marks for its poor scholarship.

[Ellery]

Yes, let's call the writer a "pissed off nerd" and not address any of his statements. That's useful. Let's call the responder a "slavish fanboi" and not address any of his statements either. If we keep this up, pretty soon we won't have to think about any questions at all! Edit--this applies specifically to Clyde, whose post is a few spots above this one.

I think all the original points have been discussed on these boards at length. I've not actually seen any good counterarguments to any of those general points although some specifics are wrong in the post. (The counterarguments I have seen that are based on anything solid, e.g. math, have all been wrong, e.g. mathematically incorrect.)

But I have seen a lot of posts from people claiming that they find the new system much simpler, and that they love it for that reason. For people like the writer of that message, I think there is no reason for SR4. They'll probably have more fun playing SR3. But for others there was reason--even if the final product wasn't very well executed. (Lots of success with pretty looks, some competent writing and editing, but a very poor job of crafting non-broken rules.)

[hahnsoo]

[kigmatzomat]

I understand some of the angst but not all.

Setting:
No, there were no global changes to the setting. They revamped the economy, did some advancement of tech, and just generally addressed Crash 2.0. There's enough setting for someone to run a game but the bulk is mechanics, which is what I want out of the BBB.
Tangent: data broadcasts happen right now; you just don't know it. For years banks and credit card companies would send plain text or ROT13 transaction information over the internet. Once you have the processing power to address simsense using gigabit keys and das uber encryption becomes a no-brainer.


Mechanics:
dice pools were a nightmare to people who weren't good at odds. I've always been able to evaluate odds in my head so they weren't a problem but some of my friends were sweating bullets all the time. This is a major improvement to those people who appear to consist of about 80% of the gaming public.

You left out staging. Staging was a double edged sword. There were only 4 grades:nick, cut, disembowel, and decapitate. Even the wussiest weapon with six successes was potentially fatal. Now there's much better granularity and it takes a crapload more successes to kill granma with a butterknife.

As far as firearms and armor, go hit the other threads. People will point out that currently available concealable body armor that's only 4-5mm thick can stop a .44 magnum with only bruising. Sounds like stun damage to me.

Magic:
Mages could blow lots of stuff up in 1e. I mean, really, lots of stuff. Go look at the old Ram spell. I blew up a helicopter the first time I used it. 2e they were still pretty heinous. 3e didn't change it too much.

Guess what? They are still serious weaponry. The only difference is that now they will be taking a lot more painful drain when casting to get enough successes to drop people thanks to the lack in staging. No more firing off F:1 spells at Deadly damage using just your sorcery skill while saving your magic pool for drain.

Oh yeah, remember those people who hated combat pool? They didn't do well with magic pools either.


Other stuff
Yeah, dice pools made sense as a concept. But so few people could use them well or manage them. I've played SR with many dozen different people (yay public college full of gamers) and I'd say that no more than half the players had anything more than hunch as to how many pool dice to roll at any time.
The fact there was a separate system for GMs and players indicates it wasn't an easy to implement concept.

Skillweb. Ehh, I don't see it as anything genius. It's a flow chart and it simply isn't good game design to need a chart to function. Earthdawn's step system was brilliant from the statistical front but only die-hard players could memorize it. It was unpopular as well.

Priority-based generation. Guess what bubba, it's still an option. Nothing prevents you from delineating an array of BP combos that are balanced and quick. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't one already here on Dumpshock somewhere.

Did we need SR4? Probably not. Is it a distinct improvement over SR3? Yeah, quite a bit. Will I be a bit nostalgic over dice pools? Yeah, when I have my munchkin moments. But this is a much cleaner and more approachable system than the old.

[Kagetenshi]

[Ellery]

I'd characterize ED's system as "clever", not "brilliant". The probabilities were a little off, and they didn't seem to take variance into account (so that moving to a higher step could actually make you have a worse chance against a much better or much worse opponent). It was a good try, though.

Ultimately, though, it did end up seeming unnecessarily complex.

[hahnsoo]

[Ellery]

Yes, that was nice. It was mostly the step system that seemed like overkill to me for a system that wasn't perfected. (I think they were more interested in using all the dice than getting the best statistics.)

[WhiteRabbit]

Really, the only things I don't like in SR4 are the caps on raising skills and the lack of dice pools. The caps are easily houseruled around, and the lack of pools don't hurt too much.

[Cain]

[JongWK]

[Kagetenshi]

[JongWK]

Of course it's appropiate to post it here, but after seeing him post it everywhere on the same day (and vanish without a trace after the first post), I have to wonder...

[ChuckRozool]

What?

This is the only place i posted what my friend wrote.
Drivethrurpg is the only place he posted it...

If you've seen it anywhere else then that was not my doing

And as far as me disappearing...
This reply didn't make itself

pwned

PS - the reason for the post was because i thought he made some valid points and i figured it would be wasted in the drivethrurpg forums. Based on the amount of replies and the number of views i think i was right in posting it here.

[coolgrafix]

First of all, I'm still complaining about how Adobe changed the key shortcuts for Photoshop between version 3 and version 4. My anger at such brazen disrespect for users' time-worn habits still lingers to this day. So, I understand the arguments against change. But I still use and love Photoshop to this day regardless.

All editions of SR have/had both merits and flaws. Those of you who got SR3 back at GenCon 98 when it came out know all about the gimped movement system. And I will never forgive FASA for the overly complicated skill purchasing and advancement system that SR3 introduced. And God bless the Skill Web!

But the real issue is the life of the game product itself. Some of you out there have spent time in the RPG game publishing gulag like myself. There's really very, very, very little money to be made. It's more a hobby for the people who do it. Much worse now after D&D 3rd edition and the D20 OGL; every fanboy and his grandma started a gaming company and split an already tiny little pie into a thousand tiny slices of revenue so small that even though there is unprecedented diversity and creativity in the industry almost no one is making money (R.I.P. FastForward Entertainment, Ossium Distributing, etc.).

I don't know if we're all keeping score out there, but FASA vaporized in a puff of "had enough." The fact that someone stepped up to keep the product alive is a testament to the fans alone; someone recognized that there was a large enough base that people would continue to buy product. But the product has to be re-energized every so often to create buzz and bring new people into the fold. Anyone who claims, as all publishers do, that their new edition is being put out to clarify rules and bring disparate material together is only telling half the truth, whether it's Hero System 5th Edition, D&D 3.5, Mechwarrior 2.0, or SR4. It's about the life of the product itself.

Was D&D 3rd edition necessary? Of course not. Everyone had 2nd edition and it was just fine. But the product line was reborn anew with 3rd edition, regardless of any real improvements. Same with SR4. I haven't been this interested in SR in years, and I haven't even finished reading the SR4 rulebook yet.

Anyway, one more time: It's about the life of the product. Better "new and improved" than gone. =)

[Shadow]

To bad DSF isn't considered a 'fan base' and therefore we are either relagated to fanboys (and ignored) or supporters (and ignored).

[JongWK]

[ChuckRozool]

LOL

I didn't even realize he posted elsewhere he only told me about the Drivethrurpg post.

Anywho, looks i was pwned

and i have something else to say...

Based on what i've read so far there doesn't really seem to be much of a difference between Shamans and Mages (other than the spelling :P )

Mages, it appears can summon elementals as easily as a shaman summons a spirit. Or am i reading that wrong? I will continue to read in order to provide a more well informed opinion.

[Kagetenshi]

[Oracle]

[ChuckRozool]