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> Reflex-ware stacking
Ed_209a
post Sep 23 2003, 07:24 PM
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Is a reason given why Boosted reflexes can stack with Synaptic accellerators, but not Wired reflexes?
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 07:31 PM
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Not as such, just that the two reflex systems, boosted and wired, are incompatible.

I would assume because they both augment the same part of the nervous system.

In which case, the neuro-chemical treatments responsible for Boosted would allow for upgrading the synapses (synaptic accelerators) whereas wired reflexes already include tampering in the synapses which precludes the bioware.

Mind you, this is entirely "well it sounds good" technobabble.

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Rev
post Sep 23 2003, 07:31 PM
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No.

In reality I think it is just a loophole created by an oversight. Shadowtech simply failed to say you could not use SA and BR (which was from the street sam catalog) while it did say you could not use SA with WR (from the main book) or with MBW (from Cybertechnology sourcebook, which didn't even exist when shadowtech was written). Basic powergaming is that anything they fail to disallow is allowed, especially if they do disallow something related.

The rationalization people use for it is that wired reflexes is replacing your spine or something and synaptic accellerators are modifying your spine so you can't do both. Boosted, however, is supposed to be mostly just another modification of your nervous system. People like to think the two modifications can be stacked (which isnt too realistic, seems more likely they would interfeer with each other somehow).
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 07:34 PM
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Actually, in Man & Machine, they do specify that synaptic accelerators and boosted will stack.

Ok, before I get tanked on this one --> it's either in M&M or the FAQ.

But I do know they allowed the stacking because I remembering thinking, "Erk? Are they insane?"

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Rev
post Sep 23 2003, 07:35 PM
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Ahh they may well, haven't looked it up recently.

However since man and machine was produced well after the loophole had been found and widely exploited that does not prove that it was not originally an oversight, just that it became cannon.

I am just speculating about it being an oversight, of course. I didn't write the book :).
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 07:51 PM
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I tend to classify it as a psychotic obscenity, myself.

Although no more or less so than "move by wire" and some of the other high-end cybernetic do-hickies.

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Adam
post Sep 23 2003, 07:52 PM
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M&M supercedes Shadowtech and Cybertechnology, though; they're both 2nd Edition sourcebooks. However, house rules supercede everything. :)

[Canon, not cannon, btw. :)]
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Adam)
M&M supercedes Shadowtech and Cybertechnology, though; they're both 2nd Edition sourcebooks. However, house rules supercede everything. :)

[Canon, not cannon, btw. :)]

Unless you're talking about the firearms supplement. :grinbig:

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Ed_209a
post Sep 23 2003, 08:04 PM
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I knew a SR GM once who ruled that if your Init hit 5 dice for any reason, your head explodes.

I just re-read my original post, and I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

If Boosted _can_ stack with Synaptic Accell, why can't Wired stack with synaptic?

I think it's a good thing Boosted and Wired can't stack.
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 08:09 PM
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I _think_ it's because the improved performance gained from wired involves replacing with metal the bits and pieces that the bioware also upgrades.

So far as I know, there isn't a canon explanation except that "Eek, must preserve game balance" sort of logic.

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Shadow
post Sep 23 2003, 08:33 PM
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I though both the BBB and M&M were fairly clear on what could and could not be stacked. Read the rules again I say.
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El_Machinae
post Sep 23 2003, 08:36 PM
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Howabout this? Wired reflexes transmit the signal from the brain via wires to the muscles. Essentially, the spinal column is bypassed by a separate system.

However, both SA and Boosted Reflexes still use the spinal column as the conduit for nervous signals - hence they can be complementary.
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Siege
post Sep 23 2003, 08:37 PM
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He's not disputing the ruling, he's asking if there is a canon reason as to why, or is it just a "well, because we said so and it keeps game balance from exploding."

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sir fwank
post Sep 23 2003, 08:38 PM
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i think the words "game" and "balance" are what you are looking for.
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Zazen
post Sep 24 2003, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Ed_209a)
I knew a SR GM once who ruled that if your Init hit 5 dice for any reason, your head explodes.

And the players started using burst-fire weapons with capsule rounds containing jazz, kamikaze, and cram? ;)
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Phylos Fett
post Sep 24 2003, 03:46 AM
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IIRC, you could stack MBW with SA in SR2 - now THAT was crazy!
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Siege
post Sep 24 2003, 04:36 AM
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That begs an interesting question -- how many times have you seen move-by-twitch in your games?

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Phylos Fett
post Sep 24 2003, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
That begs an interesting question -- how many times have you seen move-by-twitch in your games?

-Siege

Actually, it raises the question.

And, my answer is once...
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Cain
post Sep 24 2003, 05:34 AM
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Two or three times, only once in a PC. Personally, if I'm going to make a speed demon, I'll stick with wired-3 with all the extras. The full combination, sans drugs, gives a better speed than MBW4 would.
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Phylos Fett
post Sep 24 2003, 05:58 AM
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I used the MBW and SA guy as a hook - the players had to liberate the Troll with those enhancements using non-lethal means... :vegm:
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The White Dwarf
post Sep 24 2003, 09:27 AM
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Yes the two stack. In game terms its simply because that combination isnt broken, while others might be (since its not allowed never tried it). Flavor reasons could be that the chemical enchancment of boosted is compatable with the grey matter of synaptic because its organic; hence the chemicals can affect it. Since Wired is technological it cant have better chemicals in it, or use the bio, because its mechanical. However remember that according to the FAQ you cannot start with cultured bioware, meaning that in order to do so youd have to aquire the accelerator in-game (unless you ignore the FAQ ruling).
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Sigfried McWild
post Sep 24 2003, 10:12 AM
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On an almost realted note
What stacks with wired?
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Fortune
post Sep 24 2003, 10:14 AM
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Reaction Enhancers! :)
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cykotek
post Sep 24 2003, 11:04 AM
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I'll make another stab at the explanation bit. My apologies for the length of this explanation/analysis.

Wired Reflexes work by short-circuiting the "analysis" portion of the sense-analyze-act progression of action. Instead of sensing something, having your brain "waste" time analyzing it, and then acting, the system allows your body to sense something, and immediately react, rather than act. A subtle difference, but important (in my games, wired is lots and lots and lots of minute modifications of brain structure, then some hardwired nervous system bypasses to the rest of the body). Adding synaptic accelerators is generally useless. Any nervous system speed increases are skipped in the brain by the "reflexes" bit, and the communication to the rest of the body is generally skipped by the hardwired reflex trunks. What good's speeding your nervous system when your nerves aren't talking? (For those interested in where I got these ideas, reread some of the wired reflexes sections from the Cybertechnology book.)

Boosted Reflexes, on the other hand, merely increases your body's metabolism. More efficient neurotransmitters, better adrenaline analogs, etc. In essence, your body is just supercharged. Adding Synaptic Acceleration to this means that, not only is your body functioning at a higher level, all the data is being transmitted faster. The directive to move reaches the muscles faster, which then act faster due to enhanced hormones and chemical triggers. In essence (and to make an analogy), it's widening a road and raising its speed limit, rather than building a brand new expressway. I suppose that I'd allow an individual to install synaptic with wired, but it would only function when the wired is turned off with a reflex trigger. A different variation on the "stepped trigger" idea.

As for game terms, synaptic/boosted is cheaper in terms of money, and about equivalent in terms of combined essence/body index vs wired. (this analysis presumes a synaptic-2/boosted-3 package vs a wired-3 package). The averages for final initiative are almost identical as well (boosted-3/synaptic-2 is a +2 reaction, +4D6 initiative (2 + (4*3.5) = 16); wired-3 is +6 reaction, +3D6 initiative (6 + (3*3.5) = 16.5)). However, the range of possibilities is much different. Boosted-3/synaptic-2 has a range of 6 to 26, while wired-3 has a range of 9 to 24.

In exchange for that somewhat randomness, you get a system you can't turn off (for good or ill), a system you can't really upgrade, is very, very difficult to remove. But you also get a system that allows you complete control (none of this "act before you think" crap), as well as a monetary savings (assuming you can find the parts needed. My games have bioware a bit harder to find than the book would otherwise have you believe). Wired reflexes becomes the "one stop fix" for reaction enhancement, while boosted/synaptic becomes the option for those willing to put up with higher hospital bills, longer hospital stays, but a generally better (in my opinion) effect.

And before anyone starts making comments about boosted-1 and boosted-2, in my opinion, boosted-2 is a waste of money and essence, while boosted-1 shouldn't enter into a discussion about true speed options. Boosted-1 is the option for people who want a little more speed, but don't want to shell out for bioware.

And I've been in a game with a PC with move-by-wire 4. My character used the above boosted-3/synaptic-2 system with the addition of reaction enhancers 6. I averaged a slightly better initiative (due to a couple of other mods, enhanced ar-twink-ulation among them), but I couldn't beat her raw speed (quickness). Hers was 16, mine was 10. But that was fine, as I was a sniper, and she was the in-your-face melee killer.
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Mongoose
post Sep 24 2003, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Cain)
Personally, if I'm going to make a speed demon, I'll stick with wired-3 with all the extras. The full combination, sans drugs, gives a better speed than MBW4 would.

Better max initiaitive roll, maybe. But those extra actions in the first two initiative passes are a HUGE difference. Nothing (not even magic) can imiatate that.

Of course, for the cost of one guy with MBW4, you can get 2 guys with similar initiatives vai other systems, giving you "two actions" in EVERY pass...
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