SR4 needs work, Rehaul people! Rebuild the damn engine! Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Xenith]

I personally !love! all of the concepts in SR4. The story, the backgroud, everything... except the damned rules!

It leaves almost no room for growth in skill. I'm fine if they have a cap on skills (even with magic and cyber) but to make it so low is disheartening. You want to make the dice pool smaller AND make skills all that more important (while still have the attributes with a say)? Have the attribute add half its rating to the pool damnit! Still simple and easy.

Also... explain. more. crap. It says that instruction adds to the pool to learn skills. What. ..pool!?

This system has so much potential but its a waste as is. You want to take more time to improve and tweak before releasing it? DO THAT! I can wait a few months ( won't like it but I'll fragging do it!)

I have a number of other complaints on the system but those are what irk me on a major level.

Is there a way to salavge it? Please tell me they're going to re-vamp it... so cool.... but such a waste...

[Catsnightmare]

Should have just fixed SR3, it wouldn't have been that hard, you wouldn't have this gigantic new-rules mess, you wouldn't have alienated a sizeable chunck of the exsisting players, I could go on, but I won't. I'll just sit here and laugh at the fact that SR4 is already halfway FUBAR. There's already lists of house rules being posted and it's been out less than a month.

I'm sure I said something before about SR4 going to wind up a rules cluster-fuck.

LOL

[hahnsoo]

It wasn't any different with previous SR releases or with releases of new editions of other RPGs. Give it a rest.

The risk that any RPG company takes in changing the core mechanic includes alienating your core audiences of fans and missing "holes" in the rules. Suffice to say, SR4 has been doing both, but at the same time, it brings a lot of possibility to the aging SR mechanic. They couldn't have simply "revised" the mechanic because all of the holes from the original mechanic would still be there (6 is the same as 7, Open tests, etc.).

[Xenith]

At first glance I don't mind the simplified set up. Fixed target number, thresholds, and such. Alright, thats fine. Altering armor a bit to add to body and make low caliber guns deal stun? Okay. Having reaction for dodging (this I like actually with the way initiative affects stats). Neat. Yes runners should be well rounded in many ways... but taking away the ability to focus and keep focusing on a set area... is just not fun.
I also enjoyed how previous editions held up skills as a bit more important than attributes. Then there was this crossover to White Wolf style game play. Well... White Wolf nWOD is an awesome system... very loose and flexible with little need for detail. Shadowrun... is all about detail. Its a game where you need to notice the small stuff (and which needs to be reflected in the rules).

Anyway... I truely want this edition to go through... I just want a bit more quality in the content of the rules...

[Kyoto Kid]

[Xenith]

I don't want "over-done complexity". I want a rehash of a few rather important areas of the rules. I enjoy most of it and want it as is... but there are several rules that are rather silly, runners starting as almost perfect fighters, hackers, or gunners is just silly... this takes away the fun of earning a damned rep and gaining skill slowly. I don't mind a skill cap.... but such a low skill cap is silly. I'd prefer a skill cap much like the attributes (1.5 times max) with a modified dice max of double the base skill. This not only fits with the adept power, allows for more growth, but allows for the skill levels of the legendary persons like Fastjack and such. I'd prefer to make the dice pool smaller somehow and have the focus on skills again, but the current rules make that nearly impossible.

There are a few other issues like the instruction skill explaination (adds dice the the dice pool to learn a skill.... what pool? where?).

I think the range needs work. Perhaps a -4 modifier instead of a -3 but that might just be nit picking there and comparing it to SR3 there.

I HATE how they did movement. Its outright dumb. Know anyone who can walk 10 meters in 3 seconds? I don't. Just to shed some light on it its about 30 feet. Use the original set up for movement. Agility or reaction for walking speed, and x3 for running (or 2.5 ft you want to stick to the charts set up.) I like how they gave Dwarves a penalty and Trolls a bonus, but beyond that... it sucks.

Agility is a bit too emphasized in the combat skills... lets see... about 18 of 75 skills which Logic ties in skills as well. Kinda makes strength useless unless you are a melee, bow, or thrown weapon fighter or running/swimming like hell. Not balanced when the skills agility has are all the gun skills, all the melee weapon skills, and so on. Much of it makes sense but there are a few skills that should be linked to strength. Like Clubs. Or they could just give strength a few more skills or something. This one isn't all that big a deal, I just feel that a bit of balance is needed.

I like the technomancer, I like the magic set up (almost excessively expensive to raise a magic stat above 6 but I can live with that.) And I hope they bring back the quick draw adept power in Street Magic.

I like.. no love the way they linked reaction (and the initiative boosting power/cyber) to oppose combat skills. This make me happy. :D

I like this new edition's concepts and many of the rules, but many important rules seem to be bungled or at least hurried for publication.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Walknuki]

If you have a problem with skills caped at 9, change it. I can guarantee that the Fanpro police won't come kicking down your door and haul you off to gamer jail if you up the limit to 12 (or higher).

I haven't found many problems with the rules. The rules with cyber limbs starting at all stats 3 and only able to raise to 6 without a cyber torso doesn't sit right when you consider trolls and orks. So I just have a cyber arm start at the minimum for the Meta type plus two and have them be able to raise it to their starting maximum without a cyber torso. I don't think I need to worry about the RPGustapo coming for me in the middle of the night because I changed the rules to suit my game better.

[Xenith]

Errr... skills are capped at 6 not 9. 9 is the modified limit. So while karma brings it to 6 (or 7 with aptitude) your adept powers or cyberware can only add about three dice if you have the skill at 6.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Indeed. It's sooo sad Adept Powers aren't able to effectively double your dice anymore...

[Walknuki]

[Xenith]

I detect sarcasm there.
Eh. I just want base skill to be as important as attributes, at least. Adept powers shouldn't raise it ubber high. Having about three levels of Improved ability is enough. So a Skill cap of 9 (10 with aptitude) with a modifed limit of 12 (13 with aptitude) seems fair enough to me. Allows room to grow. Certainly either double karma costs to buy skills about 6 or raise the multpier by one. I'd do the same with attributes above the natural max... maybe...

Seems like a nice set up to me.

[mmu1]

[Xenith]

I don't mind keeping the caps, I simply want the caps higher. As is, the game has more of an emphasis on attributes with all the stat bonuses being thrown around. Skills become less important and specializations become.... very important.

[Dashifen]

How is that different, though, that real life. I have a speciality that's very important, I'm a programmer. My other skills are less important to me that my raw ability to learn to program and my programming skill (please, dear goddess, do not let this dissolve into a debate about the skill + program rating rule). My speciality is in PHP and I'm growing some serious skill with Python, too. Thus, I have a specialization that is more important than my skill, but it's but my attribtues are importent, too, for the basic, raw potential for me to learn that specialization.

SR4 seems to represent that pretty well so far.

[Xenith]

Its the number of dice it adds I'm concerned about. And your knowledge of programming is at least as much important as your logic. Sheer talent is good, but must be tempered with knowledge and experience.

[Bandwidthoracle]

[Xenith]

I'm all for reducing the dice pool a bit, but the current rules set makes that unlikely... in fact the rules set doubles much of the dice pool and increases chances of success anyway even with threshold (which I will modify... too few a number of successes are needed for "extreme" and with the buy success option, runners with large pools can easily accomplish "extreme" on a daily basis. This is with the original rules I might add).

The more I think about this... the more I want to know how much they playtested this before release... it has some issues several other people who are reading it are noticing. And they are completely new to Shadowrun. Some of them rarely agree with me on various subjects and in this case... most of them agree.

[mfb]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Xenith]

It was also a big deal if you are rolling dice pools of about 10... oh wait... thats rather easy to do in the current rules set... *gasp* Oh no.
In fact, a standard starting character will have one, two, or maybe three different pools of 10 or more. So large pools are going to be a standard in thie new system and arguing that its so horrible to raise a skill cap is.... well... decide for yourself.

[blakkie]

[Shadow]

I thought one of the goal was to reduce the number of dice thrown?

[blakkie]

[Xenith]

I either remember something like that... or had assumed it so. Perhaps in stating that they wanted a "simplified, universal" system we had assumed they would reduce the number of dice rolled.