 SR4 needs work, Rehaul people! Rebuild the damn engine! |
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 Sep 12 2005, 07:26 PM
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#151
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
2 points. ;) A character could do that, yes. The Karma rules in SR3 are hardly conducive to realistic gameplay, I will not argue there.
So now that you read the Jumping rules and noticed they do not use units smaller than meters, that is enough to rule out skill progression beyond a point which many people can easily reach? You don't think that if realism was an issue to RPG designers they might write major mechanics, like character development, based largely on reality and logic, and then have minor rules mechanics, like those dealing with the use of Athletics (or whatever), conform to that?
Then why does nearly all of the ridiculousness in the SR3 Athletics rules exist for characters with low Athletics skills as well as those with extremely high Athletics skills? The vertical jumping rules being a good example.
The resolution (ie. the rules governing the use of skills) does not need to nor should it even be strictly linear. The horizontal running jump rules of SR3 are a pretty good example of this. In any case, directly opposed situations do not have this problem, and those are the reason why hard limits are a bad idea. While it doesn't hurt either, allowing for shaving a few more milliseconds off the 100 meter world record doesn't do all that much for suspension of disbelief. Being able to trust your superior training and/or experience instead of pure luck when pitted against opponents who are also very well trained and experienced does. |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:03 PM
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#152
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Wow. This is gotten to be one long thread. I hope thats a good thing....
Here's a thought. Have an exponentially increasing karma cost. At some point there will be a point at which any further increase will be deterred. For example, Going from x2 to x3 after 6 is a surprising deterrent (7x3=21... thats alot of karma for one die...) Then from x3 to x4 at say... 10... 40 karma.... thats.... alot. Perhaps even cap it at 10 if you like, with aptitude. Steadily increase this at an interval of every 3. As a GM you can still have rather powerful people (like say spike babies or Immortal Elves or Dragons) with high skills (within sanity.. some guy with a skill of 15 is.... excessive....). Heres how I see it. If the players earn the karma and actually want to put such an investment into being better, let them. In the end they do suffer from lack of skill balance, but its makes them happy and actually makes it easier for you as a GM. They masters of pistols? Throw a force 6 or 7 free spirit at them. Not much use there huh? Take away their pistol. Give them a shoddy gun. What about an unarmed master? Riot foam takes care of that nicely. Here's an interesting concept. Disable them in their sleep. **shock... awe!** Its easy to limit seemingly high powered pcs. What if someone wants to have a Musical skill of 10? How about masters of etiquette? The building and repairing of rifles? Doesn't really unbalance them. And by the way... in my general interpitation of Shadowrun... if your PCs are fighting alot... they screwed up (unless they're mercs then... go crazy :) ). Saying it unbalances them is silly. They can be killed very easy by a stealth freak or being surprised. An extra die does not make a PC unstoppable... on the contrary... it can make them complacent. 8) |
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Sep 12 2005, 09:05 PM
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#153
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
That is interesting considering I am hearing of people speak of 20+ dice rolls in SR4. The best my namesake (a prime runner level adept) in SR3 could do in an all out attack was 24 dice & that is with her Improved Ability, Articulation & her Weapon Focus) Of course this pretty much toasted her combat pool for subsequent attacks in that combat turn which is why I did it only once (& that was to trash a big ass toxic spirit). |
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Sep 13 2005, 01:50 AM
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#154
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I built a twinked out elven samurai who had 10 agility +7 skill + 2 smartlink + 1 reflex recorder = 20 dice. He was otherwise an idiot (Logic:1) and a wuss (body:4) with only a handful of skills. His dice pool was typically less than the 20 due to range, visibility modifiers, cover, etc. The most twinked out thing I can think of for an active skill roll is a magic adept. I'm thinking troll adept with exceptional attribute, aptitude-Melee weapon, ability boost, skill boost, and a weapon focus. I think then you could have at chargen 11 strength + 5 attribute boost + 7 melee skill + 2 spec + 7 magical skill + 2 dice weapon focus = 34 dice. This assumes some luck (or edge) on the attribute boost power check. |
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Sep 13 2005, 02:46 AM
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#155
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Dice pools in SR4 are more consistently high than dice pools in SR3 or previous editions. Characters roll 6 to 8 dice on most activities, social, mental, matrix, or magic. Compared to when players rolled 6 dice on almost all non-combat tasks of specialty and 4 dice on non-combat tasks of moderate interest - that's sort of an increase in die rolling. In SR4, characters roll 12 to 20 dice on whatever they happen to specialize in. That's much more than people were rolling in previous editions. At least, it is in many fields of endeavor. But not in all fields. The lack of the dice pools has destroyed the largest piles of dice from previous editions. In SR3, a combat adept, a tricked out magician, a rigger, or a doctor character type could easily enough be throwing around nigh-on 30 dice if that's what they really wanted to do. A Face was capped at 10 in anything but the most obscure situations, and became ridiculous by moving the TNs up and down, but an Adept achieved ludicrousity by just rolling more dice - and more dice did they roll. In SR4, basically everyone rolls 3/4 of the amount of dice that the people wo rolled the most dice in SR3 roll. This means that some players will complain because their die pools have basically doubled, while other people will complain that their dice pools have shrunk. This aspect, at least, I'm very happy with. I really like the fact that an extra die of Demolitions has a pretty similar meaning to an extra die of armed combat. In SR3, demolitions could be expected to go up to 9 dice for a complete twinker, so +1 die was at least an 11% shift; while a character with 30 or more dice in blades wasn't even weird - and that meant that a + die modifier might account for less than a 4% overall shift. In SR4 that just isn't true anymore. -Frank |
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Sep 13 2005, 04:00 AM
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#156
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Okay, let's see you put your money where your mouth is. Can you tell us, with 100% certaintly, the exact differences between mfb's playtest copy and the rules as printed? No? Then you have no facts to back you up. You clearly are lacking in logical skills, so I'm going to try and be helpful-- I'll keep linking to all your logical fallacies. Hopefully, this will improve your education. In this case, you're offering us Argumentum ad Ignorantium: you're assuming that because the content of the playtest is not known, it must have been significantly different than the current copy.
I defy you to find an analysis of, say, Hamlet, that does not focus on his strengths and weaknesses almost exclusively. Besides which, you're not changing your fallacious argument-- namely, that because a very small aspect of the argument may not be true in all cases, the entire premise is invalid. Note the way you've been wording things? "A bit", "not exclusively", and so on? That's a tacit admission from you that my premise is the most correct one, and that you're now just
How do you get a curriculum vitae of a character? You look at what he has accomplished, and what he has failed at. In sum, you look at his strengths and weaknesses. So, thank you for conceeding the point.
Post Hoc, Propter Ergo Hoc. In this case, you're assuming a casual relationship, when the two are actually independant.
Failure to Elucidate. Namely, what makes Zatoichi such a polar opposite of Aragorn? What's more, Zatoichi also developed a great deal through the movies, and actually showed improvement in his swordsmanship.
Another Failure to Elucidate. Namely, to my reading, Case and Molly were just above the street level, and were far from the "best of the best".
Wrong. The essential difference is that the world movers-and-shakers have many times more power than the "gritty" characters. This shows up in many ways, but stats and skills are not only included-- they're a core part of the cyberpunk genre. Nepotism can be dropped with ease; and while money helps, it's generally the goal, and not a means in and of itself.
Argumentum ad Hominem. In this case, you're not only failing to show that my argument is an either-or fallacy; but you've chosen to ignore the argument entirely, and accuse me of proffering said argument.
Q.E.D.
Another Failure to Elucidate. In this case, what ranges of choice are we discussing, and "more necessary" than what? You managed to score 2 actual arguments (which I have replied to) and 7 logical fallacies (which I have defined, proven, and offered you the means to correct your mistake). That's not a very good score; hopefully this bit of education will help you out in the future. |
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Sep 13 2005, 04:14 AM
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#157
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
To paraphrase a Monty Pythoner, dissecting an argument is just like dissecting a frog... it's messy, no one really wants to do it, and you don't learn anything from it. Could we knock it off? Not that this thread has contributed much in terms of being meaningful anyway.
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Sep 13 2005, 04:20 AM
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#158
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
in this case, i don't see what else can be done (besides just dropping it). the guy doesn't understand logical argument, so there's no way to even bring him to a basic understanding of what you're saying. you can unravel his points and wrap them around his neck, but he just doesn't understand that you're choking him, so it has no effect. so he just keeps saying the same balderdash.
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Sep 13 2005, 04:28 PM
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#159
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
I don't know why this forum still exists frankly. SR is laying on shore gasping it's last futile breaths, having been flung from the water of RPGs to die a slow hideous death.
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Sep 13 2005, 04:29 PM
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#160
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
...?
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Sep 13 2005, 04:40 PM
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#161
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Thats why returning players like myself and other posters are buying the books and starting to play....? |
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Sep 13 2005, 04:43 PM
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#162
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Your an abberation. Don't assume if you are...so is everyone else. If you didn't like SR3 in all it's glorious complexity...it's not the game for you. Gird your loins and resist the temptation of watered down rules on your puny intellect. |
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Sep 13 2005, 04:54 PM
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#163
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
So I should bask in your superior intelligence? I am assuming that you probably weigh 300+ pounds, live in your parents basement, and have a "girlfriend in Canada"? Your opinion that SR3 is for the "intelligent" and SR4 is for "dumb-dumbs" is based on...
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Sep 13 2005, 05:50 PM
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#164
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Errr... I should add that, despite my complaint that the rules need work, I still enojoy this new edition. The fact I like it is the sole reason I am even bothering trying to work something out. I've played both 2nd and 3rd edition and find that while those edition had their charm, this edition is not all that bad and has great potential. I have the pdf now, and have preordered the book. My reasons vary, but first and foremost I like a great majority of it.
I critic because I love. :D |
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Sep 13 2005, 05:51 PM
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#165
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Autarkis, Solstice: Please take the personal insults elsewhere. Thanks.
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Sep 13 2005, 07:34 PM
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#166
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
I think we'll have to wait and see if the dead-tree edition of SR4 seriously flops before anyone can say that. |
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Sep 13 2005, 08:11 PM
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#167
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
I apologize for my very uncalled for response. |
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Sep 13 2005, 09:00 PM
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#168
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Hence the very timely edit to make yourself not look like a dumbass.
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Sep 13 2005, 11:34 PM
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#169
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Timely edit? Or is that just in response to me posting "an oopps, sorry I lost my cool"? <shrug>
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Sep 15 2005, 12:12 AM
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#170
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It's doubtful that any core rulebook will flop. As I recall from reading the WotC D20 OGL press releases, they ran on the assumption that all the profit is in the core books. It's the supplements that determine if a game line survives or not-- if they're not profitable, further expansion on the line is not likely, even if the core book made a profit. |
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