 SR4 needs work, Rehaul people! Rebuild the damn engine! |
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 Sep 9 2005, 08:02 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
that's hard to achieve. you're likely to spread your character too thin, and be good at nothing instead of being good at everything. dashifen, i'm going to hold your 13 people up to the hundreds of character sheets i've seen across multiple game systems over a decade or so of gaming. most of those character sheets had stats that put the character at or near the top end of their chosen specialty/specialties. they weren't necessarily all min-maxed to the limit, but they almost all took at least the obvious choices that would make them good at what they chose to do. maybe SR4 is magically special, or something, and everybody who plays it will be compelled to create characters with lower stats and skills across the board. but i doubt it. besides which, the problem still exists (in reduced form) at 5/5. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:07 PM
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#52
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yet, it 'can be achieved without sacrificing too much ability in other areas', and will outclass everybody on the long run... seems perfect for a game with hard caps, doesn't it? |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:11 PM
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#53
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Robert, are you a jackass on purpose? Or is it an accident?
Lets clarify... are we talking about before or after cyber/bioware? Cause I just made a mage with a 6 agi and an effective 7 in Pistols with minimal trouble. And it was my first character. Did I have to do that? No. But it fit my image of the character. It is pretty easy to make a mage with 4 or 5 spells, 2 points of cyber, and some skills. Mages rule this new game supreme? Why? Because there is no reason for everyone to not be a mage and have at least one point in magic. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:18 PM
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#54
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Uhm, Shadow? Perhaps you should a) decide who you are referring to b) decide what you want to state c) do it without being too offensive and, finally d) consider wether what you wrote supported what you wanted to state. ;) |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:22 PM
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#55
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Well, I guess I have to say 1 out of 14 now, if this character's for Interception :D |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:25 PM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
read my entire statement, rotbart, instead of just the part you can argue with if you ignore the rest. i specifically said that "after all, if X is good, and everybody knows it's good, and it's not hard to get, everybody will have X." X, in the example you're using, is hard to get. therefore, not everybody will have X.
i'm not saying that everybody will make min-maxed munchkins. i'm saying that players tend to make characters who are good at what they do. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:26 PM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 16-August 05 Member No.: 7,558 |
Just by calling 3rd Edition D&D, AD&D 3.0 tells me you don't know what your talking about. And the time from 3.0 to 3.5 is about 3-4 years not 1. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:29 PM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 16-August 05 Member No.: 7,558 |
Just a question.
How many of you have actually played a game using SR 4? How many are in a campaign of SR 4? |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:42 PM
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#59
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
You.
You are acting like a jackass.
I am sure your a great guy in reali life, but on these boards you are being insulting.
I think so. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:42 PM
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#60
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
Agreed. Again my namesake is one heck of an athlete having doubled all her dice & has Articulation & Synthcardium 2 (forgot that one in an earlier post) to boot. She's almost able to go Faster than the proverbial Speeding Bullet and leap tall buildings (well at least fences & walls) in a single bound. In many ways she moves almost like Trinity from the Matrix (man I love that wall running scene). Of course I still miss the non segmented movement in SR2 (huh...?? where'd the brat go, I had her in my sights just a...*sound of Katana slicing through bone & various cyber implants* ). |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:53 PM
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#61
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Rest assured, I certainly put great attention to your wording - I just don't follow your PoV. As Shadow stated, it is by far not that hard to be awakened, chromed and be good at something else, too - especially, if being an Orc essentially means 20 free BP as stated in another thread. The Hacker part was indeed exaggerated, but not that much - it is really cheap to max a commlink.
Actually, you did neither - you stated that everybody will make characters that are world class at what they do. In SR4, good would be 3, perhaps 4, while 5 is already exceptional. The fine point is - why stop there, if you already stopped worrying about the concept of the character (and just adjusted it to fit the numbers)? But, if your concept, as Shadows, is to have a chromed Mage that is a worldwide legend with Handguns - wouldn't it be rather restrictive of a creation system not to allow that?
If you are offended by my sarcasm, I am truly sorry. Yet, I'd rather be helpful and sarcastic than 'helpful instead of sarcastic'. |
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Sep 9 2005, 08:53 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
I've GMed about four adventures and the problem for my players is that theres not much more to go after raising a skill they consider their specialty to 5 or 6. They still have grown in other areas but they want to be able to grow a bit more. Many of them also found the focus on attributes rather annoying and boring. I'm having to up the thresholds just to make it challenging for them, and many of them are new to Shadowrun. And trust me, I don't make things easy normally (in D20 systems and nWoD I commonly had them outnumbered in combat, with a twisting story of hidden facts which they sometimes gathered through dice rolls and ingenuity. I'm not an easy GM by any means...but that makes it more fun when they win, partially win, or sometimes manage to escape with their skins.)
I've stick to these core rules... and I find them to be lacking, so changes are in order. |
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Sep 9 2005, 09:03 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 16-August 05 Member No.: 7,558 |
Well, if you feel that the players are constrained about the skill caps. Just lift them and double cost to raise a skill over the normal cap. Edit. I was just thinking. Add a quality called 'Focused Skill'. Which lifts the skill cap on one skill and doubles the cost to raise it over the normal skill cap. Give it a cost of oh I don't know, 5 karma. Also have a prerequisite of Aptitude quality in the chosen skill. Just to respond to your post. Why do you consider the game to be too easy for the players then if your having to up the thresholds? |
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Sep 9 2005, 09:06 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
sounds interesting... might need some work and some balance but could work..
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Sep 9 2005, 09:17 PM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 16-August 05 Member No.: 7,558 |
Well if the players are having problems spending their karma just give them some more ways to do it! If they can see a way to possibly improve a maxed out attribute+skill then give them a out. Make it expensive but give them a chance. Though as a GM, I would hit them where they were weakest. So your got a maxed out Sammie that is as deadly with his swords as anyone in the world. Have him fight on a slick ice covered bridge with a couple of snipers trying to take him out from across a canyon. :D
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Sep 9 2005, 09:21 PM
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#66
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
As has been said in numerous other threads, it breaks the system. You have to up the power level of your opponents to ungodly status just to challenge the players. SR4 has a lot of cool ideas, scalability and long term play aren't on the list. |
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Sep 9 2005, 09:26 PM
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#67
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*sigh* fine, let me clarify, since you seem hellbent on twisting everything, and willfully ignoring the point. players tend to give their characters the maximum available rating in skills and attributes related to the character's field of expertise. |
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Sep 9 2005, 09:47 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
I haven't used the upped thresholds yet, but it should make it more interesting at least. They don't roll THAT well. :)
Its merely having the option of doing that... eventually that makes me feel better. It has to do with several things... like the skill level of legends like FastJack... they should be better than only one step away from a PC. Two or three steps? Certainly. :) |
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Sep 9 2005, 09:55 PM
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#69
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Since you seem to spin a phenomena to the point where it serves your assumptions and arguments, I would say that taking you by word does not twist what you wrote, but rather shows that what you initially wrote (and what sounded so easy to swallow) does not support your theory at all.
Fine, this is a thesis one can work with. So let's get this straight: First, you assume that some players tend to min-max their characters - sometimes even regardless of their initial concept? This phenomena exists, indeed - but it's far from being general. Second, because SR4 allows a player to do so, it is a broken system? Only if you expect a system to enforce a guidance that keeps players from doing so. Third, with hard caps this becomes directly visible? Quite sure - when you hit the wall of a hard cap, there is less excuse for not 'staying in character'... as this is the only point where the problem can arise: If you did 'stay in character' and your concept states that the character is at the pinnacle of his development... then there is nothing wrong. Whats my point? What is perceived as a problem is in fact a system that in some respect restricts players less than previous editions... I would rather blame the player, than blame the system, as the system assumes, that the player is aware of his choice. So this boils down to the ultimate question (well, exaggerated, indeed ;)): Doe one value the freedom of choice over the safety of guidance, or not? |
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Sep 9 2005, 10:06 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
So as a mechanic you'd rather blame the driver and tell him to keep driving it rather than fix the problem. Gotcha.
The problem is that the system is too condensed. Expand it a little and you give players something to look forward even if they rarely reach it. Even an expert, elite, or even legendary person in a skill knows they can always improve further (ever talk to someone who's considered the best? Many will tell you there'll always be someone better. There are many an article and interview that bring up this point). There are little tricks as well as unconcious timing and coordenation that improve the more you use the skill. So the cap, as low as it is, is silly. A cap in particular is silly but I'm willing to have one just to have a hint of canon. |
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Sep 9 2005, 10:13 PM
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#71
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You assume there is a problem, so you missed the point:
Thats more a question of flavor than a problem - the system of WoD is widespread with a scale even smaller. |
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Sep 9 2005, 10:28 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Indeed, problem is WoD is one thing. Shadowrun SHOULD be something else. They should not be blurred mirrors of each other. Period. I love the WoD system... but when I want to play Shadowrun I want something different because it should be handled differently. If I want to play Shadowrun with WoD rules... I'll do that.. but I want Shadowrun with SHADOWRUN rules.
Wether or not you see a problem is not the point. Thats fine. You play it canon and thats your choice. I see a problem and I want to make it better for me and others. Its a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion and theres nothing wrong with it. I simply disagree and will continue to disagree. And in WoD you CAN raise your abilities AND skills over the max if you're supernatural, it just takes time and effort. Not so condensed as long as you aren't totally a normal human. |
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Sep 9 2005, 10:46 PM
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#73
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And thats fine and fair for you - nobody forces you to do otherwise. If you want a more distinctive feeling, this might just be hard to acquire by just modifying SR4. The mechanics of SR4 are, though seemingly the same, something entirely different - most of the distinctive elements are out of the window. (Yes, it is impressive that SR4 at least feels somehow like SR3... nice work of the devs, but unfortunally, this is what causes most of the quarrel.) To get them back, you basicly would have to redo the whole system - or maybe you want to join the SR3R-project.
I understand your point, but as do you with mine, I don't share it, though valueing it.
Erm, well - supernatural entities in Shadowrun can cross this cap, too - and in the WoD, most of the times the cap for supernatural PCs was just a bit higher than for mere mortals... but this is just a sidenote, too. ;) |
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Sep 9 2005, 11:01 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
I really hoped the character creation system in sr4 wouldn't be as screwed as in sr3 ...
I reckon it is a very little less. Why the fuck didn't they introduce a simple single build point system ? "should I take 6 in automatic weapons in creation, or should I wait until it will be worth so much karma points ?" What did some fasa crew said ? minmaxing is a trouble with gamer, not with a game. but the system induce min maxing. waiting for becks sr4 |
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Sep 9 2005, 11:55 PM
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#75
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I think I've arrived at a tentative 'fix' to the system that may work, and I'd like some input:
Use the following: - Total hits cannot exceed Skill Rating x 2, unless Edge is used. - Skill caps put at 9(10 with aptitude) - possibly x3 cost to increase above 6. - Attributes cost x5 Karma to raise (not Magic, Resonance and Edge though). Possibly keeping it at x3 up to half the unmodified attribute, or half the racial maximum. I'm also considering adding: - Half of Attribute rolled with Skill for tests, and use Rule of 6 for all skill tests. - EX Explosive ammo: DV +2, AP -1. No huge changes, but what do you think? |
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