 Spirit...Spirit some people fear it...., Even better than before. |
  |
 Sep 11 2005, 09:14 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566  |
Ooops. Didn't answer your last point. I think there is a difference between the magic power level in SR3 to SR4 (with SR4 magic seeming to be stronger than SR3.) I haven't gotten the chance to look completely at the Spirit section of the pdf yet or even played it out in a meaningful way, so I can't really speak to it with utmost confidence. I guess what we have here, on the surface, is a creature that can't be effected by mundanes but is more effected by magically active characters (i.e. killing hands, weapon foci, banishing, etc..)
I'll really have to defer to other posters until I have had a time to be comforable with it (I am still a little hardcoded with SR2 rules and sometimes miss the impact of changes.) |
 |
 
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 09:41 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
I did do some quick reading, and Summoning and Binding are two different things.
Summoning a spirit, the spirit resists with Force and you can only have one unbound at any time. This is the spirit that will hang out with you for a certain time period (until sunrise or sunset) or until its services are used up. It takes a Complex Action to summon an Unbound. Binding a spirit, the spirit resists with ForceX2 and you can have as many bound spirits as you have points in Charisma. It takes the Force in hours to summun a Bound. The examples given earlier are for Unbound Spirits? Just want to make sure I am reading this correctly (sorry for the quick machine gun posts.) |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 09:48 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I donīt understand this discussion. A mage that is entirely twinked towards summoning and binding can appearently summon very powerful spirits that can beat anything in the game. Only most of the time they die when they do it. Thatīs the equivelent of having a instakill ability that has somewere in the vicinity of 50% (Iīm guessing) chance of killing you instead. Itīs stupid. Real shadowrunners do not willingly shoot themselves in the chest and hope to live, even if it would kill their enemy if they did. You should keep to summoning spirits with a force of half your summoning dice pool, I think.
(The examples are, as far as I know, for unbound spirits unless stated otherwise. You are reading it right. Summoning is an opposed test cha+summoning:force, drain 2xthe spiritīs hits (ouch). Binding is opposed test cha+binding:forcex2, drain 2xthe spiritīs hits (double ouch). |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 09:58 PM
Post
#29
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That looks reasonable enough.
Gotcha, here's I think where the error comes in. A die hits 1/3 of the time, not .3333 of the time. That's pretty insignificant most of the time, but it does cause round-off errors to become statistically significant when you are talking about vanishingly unlikely scenarios (like the Spirit rolling enough successes on 12 dice to kill you with drain).
No. A twinked out conjurer can summon something that will beat everything in the game and usually hospitalize themselves doing it. They can also summon up something capable of smiting almost everything in the game and not really care about the drain. The chances of actually dying are extremely low - less than 1% of the time are they going to run a serious risk of death when the drain comes up. Their chances of having to spend edge are actually pretty high - almost 1.5%. But spending an Edge or two to kill anything in the game is still pretty severe for a starting character. -Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 11 2005, 10:26 PM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
So what? Still:
Itīs still worse than shooting yourself in the chest, aint it? People who do stuff like that eccept once in their career for dramatical effect as a last resort, have to be dealt with by the GM anyway. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 11 2005, 10:47 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Well...so lets say we made the twinked out character (we will use Human for now) that would survive this (or has a high chance.)
Attributes: 195 BP Body 1 Agility 1 Reaction 1 Strength 1 Charisma 6 Intuition 1 Logic 6 Willpower 6 Edge: 65 BP Edge 7 Magic (65 BP) Magic 6 Active Skills: (26 BP) Binding 6 (+2 Spirits of Man) Positive Qualities (20 BP) Mage (15 BP) Mentor Sprit (5 BP) -Dog Gear: (Resources 45,000 :nuyen: 9 BP) Summon Focus 3 (3*15,000 :nuyen: =45,000 :nuyen: ) Notes: Binding Summoning Focus 3 (3 BP) 20 BP remaining for additional skills, resources, contacts, spells, etc. So far we are at 380 BP, with 20 BP to "flesh" out "Duke Nuke'em." Actually more if you take some negative qualities. If we made him an Elf, we would need to come up with 10 more BP (this would increase Charisma to 8 but reduce Edge to 6). Maybe Uncouth, Infirm, or something else? I think someone "could" do it, but would they want to? Would a GM even allow the above in? |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:08 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
You can only "Max Out" one attribute at character creation, p73, 1st column, last paragraph.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:14 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Here's a question. If a spirit's "immunity" armor is 2x Force, how does this effect the physical to stun damage changeover if the DV of a weapon is less than the modified armor rating. For example, if I shoot a spirit with a Predator 4 for a modified DV of 7 (2 net hits for my roll). There's a -1 AP for the pred, so a force 6 spirit would have 12 armor to normal weapons -1 for the AP = 11.
Thus, would my weapon go into the spirit's stun damage track? Do spirits even have a stun damage track? I imagine they do since you can choose to do one or the other in Astral Combat which has, in my experienced, focused more on dealing with spirits in their home turf than with other projected mages. Granted a spirit rolling 17 (+/- body modifications due to spirit types) to resist that 7 DV is probably going to get 6 hits or so, thus taking only one damage, but even in SR3 if you were shooting or fighting a spirit with mundane weaponry you were generally just chipping away at it and hoping that your friends in melee bonuses helped you out over time. Also, don't forget that weapons foci are now only Force x 5 in availability and Force x 10,000 :nuyen: to purchase and you can bond them at character generation with points equal to force. Thus, for 2 build points to bond plus 4 build points for the necessary 20,000 :nuyen: you can have a nice force 2 weapons focus at character generation which makes spirit combat a little more balanced. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:18 PM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Immunity to Normal Weapons is Hardened Armor (p288), thus if an attack doesn't exceed this power in DV, then it does nothing. Spirits have a stun track. Using default combat rules against a Spirit is practically moot unless you catch them unaware or fight them in Astral combat, as their Reaction attribute is through the roof. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:19 PM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Immunity to normal weapons works like hardened armor
but you can always shoot with SticknShock, thats elementary attack. StickNShock is way overpowered and broken btw. No reason to use anything else. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:28 PM
Post
#36
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Unless you are facing folks with non-conductive armor (not that it completely negates the effect). :-P Although I will admit, Stick N Shock is the main reason my SR4 ork character is currently investing in non-conductive armor. It's also being developed in Real Life ™: http://www.jaycor.com/web-content/eme_ltl_sticky.html |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:34 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Sure, but "6S(e) / -half Impact" is better than standard assault rifle shooting against every armor. And you can have it in your heavy or light or holdout pistol. AND you get the electricity effects, which is at least -2 dice and a good chance of a crippled enemy.
broken just like gel, flechette eXplosive, eXexplosive. APDS and regular Ammo are completely useless. SR4 turned ammo usage upside down. But StickNShock is the absolute King of the Hill. Btw: Why is electricity damage resisted with half impact armor ? I would say that the electricity barely does any damage if the metal contacts cant get to your skin, so impact armour should be very very effective. Same wiht Tasers. Why is impact halved ? I dont think that a sheet of plastic (impact armor) between you and the source of electricity should be that ineffective. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2005, 11:43 PM
Post
#38
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Good catch (I will have to update my Character Generator to catch that.) So it frees up an additional 50 BP and reduces two stats to 5. The point was to show that you could make that character, he would just be a one trick pony. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 12 2005, 07:44 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Hmm. It does seem spirits have become a great deal more powerful after all. Before you could at least count on being much faster in astral combat if you projected. How about the willpower attack? In SR3, spirits were always dead in the water because all characters had 6 in willpower. Thatīs not the case anymore, but is there even a way for mundanes to fight spirits? It sais the "truely crazy or brave have enough force of personality" so I guess itīs charisma now. But the rules for astral combat states that you can not attack an astral form if it has a physical form unless you astraly project. Thereīs got to be a way for mundanes to fight spirits still, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 12:54 PM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Wasn't it a charisma attack? That's besides the point because it's still a valid question. Mundanes fighting spirits probably go with Stick-n-Shocks as was mentioned above.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 12:58 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Or, well, ADPS or ExEx - in SR4, Immunity to normal Weapons does not negate their boni in DV and AP.
The much greater problem is to hit the spirit, though... so perhaps, use grenades instead. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 03:30 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Ares Alpha ... your spirit busting friend in all situations. :D
SYL |
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 10:17 PM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Good luck with that if the Spirit has a force of 6 or more. The Stick-n-shock has a DV of 6, halves the spirit's 12 hardened armor... and bounces off with no effect whatsoever. The grenade launcher has a quite meaty DV of 10, but it has no AP, so the whole 12 points of hardened armor applies... and you still bounce off with no effect. If you have a force 6 spirit in your sights, nothing short of a heavy weapon is going to make it blink. A force 7 spirit laughs at most of those even, as an Ultimax HMG with ExEx ammo bounces off (9 DV, 5 AP, just barely inadiquate to scratch the paint on the 14 hardened armor on a force 7 spirit). The only thing that can hurt a force 7 spirit is an AWP with APDS or a Panther Assault Canon (either 8DV -7AP or 10DV -5AP will penetrate), but neither of those will do jack to a force 8 spirit. And the answer to the question "Can a dedicated summoner loft a force 8 spirit every day?" is yes. You won't even get hospitalized if you tweak yourself out for drain resistance. And since you're overcasting anyway, you don't even need a magic of 6 to pull this off. You can do just fine with a Magic, Logic, and Willpower of 5. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 12 2005, 10:33 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Grenades could be seen as an elemental effect (force, explosion, fire, whatever).
SYL |
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 10:37 PM
Post
#45
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
They sure could. And that doesn't matter in the slightest, because immunity to normal weapons no longer makes the distinction in SR4.
So regardless of whether you can convince your GM that there is an "Elemental Handgrenade Metaplane", you still can't do jack against a Force 6 Spirit with one. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 12 2005, 10:44 PM
Post
#46
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Elemental Effects are resisted with half amor. Wouldnīt that count? After all, the rules regardings hard amor speak of "modified DV/AP" IIRC.
SYL |
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 10:57 PM
Post
#47
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
:rotfl: You've got to be kidding. Elemental spell effects are resisted with half armor, and the critter power "elemental attack" is resisted with half armor. Of course, magical effects of any kind can't be resisted with immunity to normal weapons at all. The only part of the rulesbook that says that elemental effects halve armor is on page 196:
Unless and until a handgrenade becomes a "spell", it has to deal with its own listed AP value of -2. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 12 2005, 11:39 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Why should a fireball spell be a magic attack ?
Sure, the fire is created by magic, but the fire itself has nothing to do with magic. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 12 2005, 11:47 PM
Post
#49
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
No, I am not kidding.
or
So, we have cold, fire, acid and electricity as defined elemental effects. Their source can be magical (indirekt combat spell) or technological (taser or flamethrower). Now, can we define normal grenades as an additional elemental effect (like in SR3)? If yes, a normal Grenade would do something around 10 elemental damage and reducing the hard armor of a force 6 spirit to 6 (with some funny sideeffects for vehicle combat). If an attack with a grenade is not an elemental attack (because it causes no fire damage or because the description of the proper elemental effect (I think in SR3 it was "Blast", could that be?)) is missing, then you are right and we have to wait for the Arsenal-Book to include special grenades (acid splash, phosphor, napalm etc) or better taser-rounds. SYL |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 12 2005, 11:50 PM
Post
#50
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Wrong. SR4 treats all electricity attacks in the same way; all fire attacks in the same way; all cold attacks in the same way; and all acid attacks in the same way. The "Special Types of Damage" rules on page 154 are in the Combat chapter, not the Magic chapter, and apply to all appropriate damage sources regardless of whether they are technological or magical in origin. If you read the rules presented there, you will notice that *all* these damage types are resisted by half Impact Armor. StickNShok rounds would halve the spirit's Armor. So would a stun baton, or a flamethrower, or even a dunking in liquid nitrogen. However, hand grenades don't do Fire damage. So you're correct about the hand grenade having to rely on its inadequate AP of 2. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 21st April 2026 - 12:22 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.