Summoning Elemental: Basics - Dumpshock Forums

Summoning Elemental: Basics, Is it there all the time, or not?

RainOfSteel View Member Profile	Sep 11 2005, 09:21 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725	I did do a search back as far as possible on Summon Elemental, but the topic titles for the hits I got did not look like they covered my question. ------------------------------------------------------------------ SR3 p.186 says: "A master need not use all the services of an elemental at once. At the time of its summoning, an elemental is bound to respond to calls from its master. The elemental then departs, vanishing from the physical and astral planes altogether until is is called." I have run into a gaming group that insists that a mage's elementals sit there within x meters all the time, continuously, until their services are used up. When I point to the above, they shrug and dismiss it with, "Then how does an elemental appear inside an astral barrier?" This also goes to legality, as in the city we're playing in, you cannot legally have an elemental of higher than force 3, and since your elementals are all sitting right there continously, any authority that assenses you and picks up an elemental at higher that force 3 has busted you. They also don't seem to play the Exclusive Complex Action required to make the Elemental appear, either (its sitting there, so you can order it to do whatever, whenever). Naturally, we are playing it the way the GM wishes. I didn't get to ask a whole lot of questions, because I wasn't interested in arguing it out other than going, "Uh, what? What about, <here in the rules>?" So I never got around to asking how Elementals can follow a mage across astral barriers. My question to the board is: Has anybody ever heard of or otherwise played an interpretation of the SR3 Elemental Summoning rules such as I have described here? Is this sort of thing common and I'm just a newbie, or what?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 11 2005, 09:27 PM Post #2
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	The gaming group is wrong. Slap them until they actually read the section in question. ~J

hyzmarca

Sep 11 2005, 09:38 PM

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Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Sep 11 2005, 04:21 PM)

I did do a search back as far as possible on Summon Elemental, but the topic titles for the hits I got did not look like they covered my question.

------------------------------------------------------------------

SR3 p.186 says: "A master need not use all the services of an elemental at once. At the time of its summoning, an elemental is bound to respond to calls from its master. The elemental then departs, vanishing from the physical and astral planes altogether until is is called."

I have run into a gaming group that insists that a mage's elementals sit there within x meters all the time, continuously, until their services are used up. When I point to the above, they shrug and dismiss it with, "Then how does an elemental appear inside an astral barrier?"

Next time they ask that question respond with "fragging metaplanar travel, drekbrain" or a similar paraphrase.

Elementals and Allies can be called to the Magician's location through their home metaplane. By traveling through the metaplanes they bypass all physical and astral space between two points. It is as good as teleportation. While Elementals are waiting for their masters' calls, they are in their home metaplanes doing whatever it is elemental's do when pushy metahumans aren't summoning them.

hahnsoo

Sep 11 2005, 09:46 PM

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Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

While Elementals are waiting for their master call, they are in their homes metaplanes doing whatever it is elemental's do when pushy metahumans aren't summoning them.

I always imagine that they are playing some sort of celestial card game, like "Go Fish" or something.

Fire Elemental: "Hey, bob, how's tricks? Oh, and do you have a 2?"

Air Elemental: "Not going too well. My master always tells me to use Psycho-ki-what-zit on this and that. I assume he means move an object, the way he's pointing, and so far it's worked. Oh, and go fish."

Water Elemental, in the corner: "I'm so lonely *sobs*"

RainOfSteel View Member Profile	Sep 12 2005, 03:34 AM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725	Thank you, all. :D My GM is unlikely to change her mind, and I'm certainly not showing her this topic.* But the previous has been most helpful at settling my mind. * Earlier this evening I went out to a movie with another friend of mine who used to play with the group in question. We had quite a discussion about it. Apparently they've played it that way for years.

Sunday_Gamer View Member Profile	Sep 12 2005, 05:42 AM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133	If your group doesn't understand the concept of an elemental metaplane (i.e. that place elementals go to while you don't need them) ask them where they think elementals comes from? Is there a huge pile of elementals somewhere just standing around waiting to be called? The breakdown of rules on how long it takes to give an elemental commands and how long it takes to call one into standby are pretty clear. Your GM shouldn't have a problem changing her mind, once she realizes she is wrong. Reread the section on summoning spirits and commanding them, everything is there. SR3 p186 explicitly states as you know, in the second paragraph of "binding elementals" : "A master need not use all the services of an elemental at once. At the time of the summoning, an elemental is bound to respond to calls from its master. The elemental then departs, vanishing from the physical and astral plan altogether until it is called." Doesn't get much clearer than that. If she won't conceed, I recomend a good slap. Sunday

RainOfSteel

Sep 17 2005, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)

If your group doesn't understand the concept of an elemental metaplane (i.e. that place elementals go to while you don't need them) ask them where they think elementals comes from? Is there a huge pile of elementals somewhere just standing around waiting to be called?

The breakdown of rules on how long it takes to give an elemental commands and how long it takes to call one into standby are pretty clear. Your GM shouldn't have a problem changing her mind, once she realizes she is wrong. Reread the section on summoning spirits and commanding them, everything is there.

Oh, I agree completely. However, it would require arguing with the GM over something she's been doing for years.

I would love if it worked normally, but forcing my way is hardly worth blowing the peace and friendship of the gaming group over.

QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)

Doesn't get much clearer than that. If she won't conceed, I recomend a good slap.

Her husband, also a gamer in the same group, would object. Not to mention me getting kicked out of the group and probably running into some nice police officers shortly thereafter. :(

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 04:38 PM Post #8
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Slap harder. It fixes all such problems. ~J

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 05:01 PM Post #9
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Seriously, sit down with her (not in front of the rest of the group) and go over the relative parts of the books together and see if you can get her to see the light. The books are reasonable clear on the subject, and what she's doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

hahnsoo

Sep 17 2005, 07:27 PM

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Mr. Johnson

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If you need ammunition, there is specific language in Magic in the Shadows on page 96 and page 98:

QUOTE

Metaplanar Travel
Unless otherwise stated, each spirit has the ability to take a Complex Action and travel from physical or astral space directly to its native metaplane and vice versa (see Metaplanes, p. 91). Because they do not move “through” astral space to do this, astral barriers cannot impede this movement. Most spirits cannot travel to metaplanes other than their own.
A spirit that has been put on “stand-by” by its summoner will usually return to its native metaplane to wait. Once called, it will move back to astral space and appear in the presence of its summoner. Called spirits can only appear in their summoner’s presence; they may not be ordered to appear somewhere else in the world. Domain-limited spirits can only be called back in an area considered part of their domain.
A conjurer can use this “metaplanar short cut” to get a spirit past an astral barrier, but doing so uses up one of the spirit’s services.

Also present this information saying "Look, I know you've been playing this way for years, and if you want it to be a house-rule, that's fine with me, as a player. However, the rules say that bound elementals can pass astral barriers using metaplanar travel, as stated here..."

Sunday_Gamer View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 07:12 AM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133	I must be closer with my gaming buddies than you are because a good slap is considered a perfectly legitimate argument when someone is presented with clear and obvious proof of something and yet they chose the "plug my ears and go lalalalalala" argument. It's one thing to say " I understand that's how it's supposed to work but I want to run it this way." house rules. I am however a little worried about someone outright refuting what is clearly expressed in the rule book. That just speaks to me as to someone general mindset and would probably turn me off the game, but again, personal preferences. Sufficed to say if slapping this dizzy girl would get you into trouble, avoid that. Sunday

RainOfSteel

Sep 18 2005, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE (Fortune)

Seriously, sit down with her (not in front of the rest of the group) and go over the relative parts of the books together and see if you can get her to see the light. The books are reasonable clear on the subject, and what she's doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Yes, I might well try that.

But it'll have to wait until her finals are over, I don't want to jog her elbow at a potentially irritable moment.

RainOfSteel

Sep 18 2005, 11:07 PM

Post #13

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

If you need ammunition, there is specific language in Magic in the Shadows on page 96 and page 98:

QUOTE

Metaplanar Travel
Unless otherwise stated, each spirit has the ability to take a Complex Action and travel from physical or astral space directly to its native metaplane and vice versa (see Metaplanes, p. 91). Because they do not move “through” astral space to do this, astral barriers cannot impede this movement. Most spirits cannot travel to metaplanes other than their own.
A spirit that has been put on “stand-by” by its summoner will usually return to its native metaplane to wait. Once called, it will move back to astral space and appear in the presence of its summoner. Called spirits can only appear in their summoner’s presence; they may not be ordered to appear somewhere else in the world. Domain-limited spirits can only be called back in an area considered part of their domain.
A conjurer can use this “metaplanar short cut” to get a spirit past an astral barrier, but doing so uses up one of the spirit’s services.

Also present this information saying "Look, I know you've been playing this way for years, and if you want it to be a house-rule, that's fine with me, as a player. However, the rules say that bound elementals can pass astral barriers using metaplanar travel, as stated here..."

Ah. A good rules quote is always helpful, I'll add that in.

So, if I read that right, every single time you call up your elemental inside an astral barrier, it uses up a service just to get it there?

cykotek

Sep 18 2005, 11:24 PM

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No, it doesn't use a service. Calling an elemental to your presence doesn't take a service normally, and there's no more effort for it to arrive inside an astral barrier than it does outside one. Similarly, telling it to bugger off until you need it again doesn't constitute a service.

Another rules bit that might help your discussion with the GM.

QUOTE

SR3, pp 186-187
A called elemental stays in astral space by preference. Only if ordered to do so does it assume physical form. If twenty-four hours pass while an elemental is present in astral or physical form, even if it is performing a different service, an additional service is used up. This does not apply while a bound spirit is awaiting its master's call, only when it is actually present.

Basically, if you summon an elemental and allow it to return to its metaplane, it's bound indefinately. Only spending extended time in your presence or telling it to take action will cause the binding to eventually fail.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 11:47 PM Post #15
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	If you'll reread the section quoted above, there is that specific instance where calling a spirit uses up a service. It's a rule with no justification save game balance, but there you go. ~J

cykotek View Member Profile	Sep 19 2005, 01:49 AM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Worcester, MA Member No.: 5,621	Now I feel like an idiot. Never noticed that final sentance before. Thanks for the heads up.

M.A.L.E-man View Member Profile	Sep 19 2005, 03:07 AM Post #17
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 3-September 05 Member No.: 7,676	One of the great strengths of Elementals is that they are always there for you when you want 'em. Same as nature spirits (although to a lesser extent- they don't 'follow you' as much). They don't form out of the 'matter' of astral space, which is just a different plane of perception, they come from ...elsewhere... maybe France...or Xanadu... or The Albion Hotel (for all you Guelphites)... At any rate they are are from a Metaplane, NOT the astral Plane an wouldn't be affected by an Astral Shield or Ward. They're...different...

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