 SR4 and the years to come., Wishes and predictions. |
  |
 Sep 13 2005, 02:21 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806  |
How do you wish to see SR4 develop in terms of design, package, writing and exposure? What do you think or hope Fanpro will do, and how will it all come out? Will SR4 be a success or a failure and what led up to that?
This is about SR's existence and content in our world, not the players' place in SR: "More/Less street-level!" has been rather covered, don't you think ;)? Thus far I think I've settled on the following: No new rules! This will be somewhat of a mantra for every publication... ever. SR3 really painted itself into a corner on this one IMO. A couple of pages of non-essential rules per book is ok, but all you'll need for every possible situation should exist in the BBB. New "system" stuff should consist of additional skills, equipment and magic. Fanpro should quickly (as soon as possible) release a few, a handful at the most, "corebooks" of sort. These will be very condensed and feature a wide coverage of their intended subject. They will also adhere to my above statement about rules, and lack geographical fluff entirely. My wishlist is Combat (weapons, gear & possibly vehicles), Everyday Life Book (housing, cosmetic or non-shadowrunner bio/cyber, consumer culture), The Supernatural (magic, spirits and awakened animals) and The Matrix. The world books, "Shadows of", should be released as thin, stapled books: 60-90 pages or so. One country per book. One or two thicker books with a collection of related places is ok, I guess, but it should be the exception. Style and visual impact! The layout of SR4 were quite satisfying in visual terms but the art was sometimes unfitting or even ugly. I think, and this is entirely subjective of course, that some of the artists has to be axed from future products. More colour art inside of books! Look to the comic industry, which is quite flourishing in terms of quality IMO, for sources of inspiration and artists. |
 |
 
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 03:38 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
I kinda agree and disagree. While it's nice not to have to cross-reference 5 books to figure out the specific rules for my players guns, adept abilities, cyber/bio-ware, and vehicles, I must most strongly disagree with the part about "... very condensed...".
I find the rules on firearm design presented in Cannon Companion to be far too condensed; I only use them due to a lack of adequate conversion rules from 3G3 (quite detailed, though math-intensive) to SR. Try a 13mm heavy rifle firing a DS round with a 3.9mm DPU penetrator and the rules break down. As for the no new rules, I feel that ADDITIONAL rules for situations not covered are acceptable... in moderation. But as for a total re-do like Rigger 2 vehicle combat, that is a major no-no. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 08:55 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
There are going to be new rules in the the core supplements. Hopefully a kinder level of confusion than SR3, but the way the SR4 BBB lays out and the product descriptions/plans read right now they are going to be there.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 09:03 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So one can only hope that there will be no new Skills - this is what really screws things up.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 09:05 AM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well at least there is a very good chance there won't be any new magical skills. The base 6 are intended to be used for all meta magics. No new Skill for each meta magic. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 09:10 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And Outdoors and Stealth seem complete, too... yet, this one little thing called Small Unit Tactics is missing - which can either mean it will rear its ugly head again in Arsenal or just has died its well earned death, consumed by Influence - Leadership (Tactics).
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 09:24 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Here's one vote for "death to Small Unit Tactics!" Sure, bring back some variant of its rules if you like... making checks to grant Init bonuses to your team is all good in my book... but the Leadership skill damn well ought to do something, which it never has in any edition of SR I can recall. Considering it has Tactics as a specialty, it's pretty clear that Leadership is the true home for any such rules. Even now we have details on how Leadership should be resisted(!) but no guidelines on what sort of benefits it might bring! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 09:41 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
What I hope is that SR4 will bring new players into the game. FanPro took a big gamble that a re-write of the rules would bring in many more new players than it caused old players to stop playing (or play SR3 or SR3R or whatever). If the gamble pays off, and we won't know until the dead-tree SR4 has been out for a while, then FanPro will continue to produce SR material.
I hope that the new source books will be 'rules light' as that will make them more attractive to those of us who don't use the SR4 rules. I think that most of the world has been covered by the 'Shadows of ...' books, particularly when SoLA comes out on-line, with the notable exception of Africa. I like Dogsoup's idea of small, single country books; the authors could concentrate on the more interesting/important countries without having to cover those that may not be. Having some of those about African countries would be nice. I personally would like to see a sourcebook of the astral and metaplanes. They are fairly undefined territory at the moment and I would like to see that change. Everyday Life would be one of my choices as well. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:08 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As announced at Origins and GenCon, SR4 upcoming schedule starts off with the core rulebooks: Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmented and Unwired. These are likely to be rules heavy just like their SR3 counterparts - but they will also have more of a fiction component than their predecessors (in fact all books will). Whether Companions will follow remains to be seen. The aim is to keep the rules streamlined, integrated and fully compatible (using the same core mechanic) as the different rules subsets in the BBB.
There might not be a need for an "Everyday Life" book like SSG if the fiction content in the new format books covers those issues. Also announced at GenCon, the location book format for the immediate future will focus on sprawls rather than nations (the vast majority of material in the Shadows of will remain valid and compatible, excepting the fallout of System Failure). The first of these sprawl books will be Runner Havens which was announced as covering Seattle and Hong Kong in detail and a few other sprawls in less detail. Single country books are too big of a commercial risk to be viable. Periodic "plotbooks" were also mentioned though what form they will take remains to be seen - I for one would like to see them follow System Failure's lead with lots of fiction and then some track style setup. Blakkie - I forsee at least one more Magical skill group coming up with Enchanting rules in Street Magic. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:13 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Hmm. I for one would prefer for such predictable additional skills to be listed in the Core Book, but essentially left as "Rules to follow in a future supplement; in the meantime, may be used at GM's discretion." A skill list in the Core Book ought to be as comprehensive as humanly possible, even if applications of those skills need to be left for future elaboration. Too late now, I suppose. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:23 AM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Unfortunately (or fortunately IMO), they set themselves up to re-introduce three magic skills - the Enchanting skill group. I agree with the majority (for once) though, death to Small Unit Tactics! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:23 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
You mean like Leadership? But flippancy aside, there's only so much space and as is a lot more was crammed into the BBB than in previous editions. Few people would be satisfied with placeholder entries. One thing Rob did announce was that he wanted to keep rules in the rules books. That should help minimize the problems of keeping track of them. Furthermore with a development policy which favors "plug ins" rather than patches and alternate subsets rules bloat should be minimized and streamlined. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:25 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'm seeing a lot of people assuming that were Small Unit Tactics to be revisited it would function in a similar way to SR3. This might not be the case. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:29 AM
Post
#14
|
|||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
With Arsenal, Leadership could become useful... just let it replace the old skill of Small Unit Tactics concerning combat boosts. ;)
Well, the favored function as a new Skill would be: not at all. :grinbig: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:40 AM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Doesn't have to be. You could use Ritual Spellcasting and/or Binding along with Assensing for refining materials. Alchemy as a new aura type for specialization in Assensing, and Talismongering as new specialization for the other. But a whole group you think? Why would you need a whole group? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 10:40 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
What Rotbart said. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 11:08 AM
Post
#17
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
Hah. I trump your flippancy with deadly seriousness! :) Yeah, I do mean like Leadership. It's never been made very crunchy. I would love it to be. But as you said, a book has finite space. I don't insist on all skills having crunch in the core, but I would much prefer for core skills to be crunchified in supplements than for whole new skills to be introduced. I think it's reasonable for a core book to at least describe the existence of a domain of competency, even if its capabilities are not fleshed out. This allows players who want to use the rules that are coming out in future to peg a few points in there at character generation. Who knows, a GM might even homebrew some placeholder mechanics to go with the placeholder skill. Players shouldn't open a book to find a new skill, that they have to buy from *zero*, that has never even been mentioned before. You mentioned a "plug-in" design philosophy. This is a Good Thing. It would be even better if long-foreseen plug-ins already had a metaphorical "expansion slot" prepared for them in the core book. A very good job of this has been done by the new systems for tradition creation, spirit summoning, Initiation and Submersion in the core book. But dropping new skills (other than highly specialized Exotic-type skills) on PCs when they are established characters verges on rude. To paraphrase the general philosophy of d20 skill mechanics: Don't make new skills. Make new *applications* for existing skills. Consider: the vehicle mechanic skills are in the book. They have almost no mechanics (EDIT: rules, not greasy-handed technicians) associated with them. We don't need a vehicle-modding ruleset in the core book. Enchanting/Talismongering-type skills' relationship to the mage is *exactly* analogous to Mechanic's relationship to the rigger. We don't need focus/fetish creation rules in a core book. The skills just need to *be there*. Anyways, this is once again an entirely moot point of game design philosophy. <shrug> Better luck next time? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 13 2005, 11:38 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 |
artisan - might be the skill used for crafting the material componets of foci and the like (covers most/all craft & artistic skills iirc)
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 02:41 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
whats the point in writing the words to a skill, and amybe describing it, if the uses arent there. NO character would take talismongering (3) if they had no USE for those points, thus, when street magic DOES come out...they'll still be buying the skill from 0
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 03:08 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Dude, skills were left off to be introduced in later supplements?!?!?!
Hahahahahahahahah Yeah, okay. Enchantment, a core rules set since the beginning was left out. Nice. There are a lot of things that have been mentioned about SR4 here at the forums that I just don't like. And a few that I actively hate. But this. This ranks over there in the stupid column. Totally going against the 'design philophisy. Stream lined. Getting rid of rule bloat an creep. :please: No, I never expected them to stick with that. Creep, bloat, whatever you want to call it will happen. And this crap of "Oh you just need the core book to play, the other books are not neccessary, unlees you want to enhance your play. :please: That is just crap. Anyone that plays SR with ANY regularity will end up buying the books. Why? "Well becuase new rule X in in Y book, and my players want it." Or, "Well I wan to use the Swordfish system introduced in the BLAHBLAHBLAH book, but the GM siad I have to buy the book." Okay, tirade over. Vented and feel better. :sleepy: |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 03:14 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
There are always skills a char in my group wanted to have that aren't include in the BBB so i don't care. Back in SR3 it was "stealing a car" (you know, how to open it and start the engine withut the keys) and in SR4 it's "enchanting". No BBB is flawless. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 03:16 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If by core you mean Talismongering was in a core supplement, Magic In The Shadows then yes. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 03:19 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't recall Enchanting being in the Core Rules (BBB) for SR1 or SR2. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2005, 04:29 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
Enchanting was not introduced until the first Grimoire. So, I rather think FanPro is just maintaining a tradition. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2005, 06:11 PM
Post
#25
|
|||||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Huh? When were the Enchanting rules in any of the base books (SR1 thru 3)? When did enchanting become core? Get off the soapbox and get your facts straight: SR1 introduced it in the Grimoire, SR2 updated it with Grimoire 2 and SR3 introduced it yet again in MitS. One thing the SR4 base book does is cram more stuff into it than the SR3 BBB ever did but there's only so much space available.
Rules creep and bloat are only problems if new rules are not streamlined and previously planned to be seemlessly integrated, compatible, intuitive and follow the same core mechanic. This was never the case with SR3. If as announced SR4 condenses the rules SR3 divided amongst 8 books in 5 AND manages to add new stuff while keeping everything consistent and integrated (and playing off the same core ruleset), I fail to see how you would consider that anything but streamlining.
You do realize the same thing was said (and holds true) of the SR3 base book. You didn't need anything else, unless you wanted "to enhance your play". FanPro came right out and announced there would be more core rulebooks long before SR4 was released - and also said these would be integrated.
What are you on about? On the same week SR4 was announced FanPro posted a link to their Winter 2005/06 catalogue which included Street Magic. The names for other core rulebooks have been known for months now. A (limited) number of core rule books was outlined at all the events and seminars FanPro held this year. What did you think would be in a book called Street Magic that would be the SR4 replacement for Magic in the Shadows if not rules? Some Metamagic techniques were crammed into the BBB but what about the updates to the rest of the MitS rules, the Metamagics in MitS and the SOTAs and the adept powers? |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 23rd April 2024 - 03:09 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.