Karma and the problmes it causes

Karma and the problmes it causes

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Cynic project View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 11:13 PM Post #51
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543	And real life isn't fair. I play games that are fair because of it. I don't want to play a game like life.I want to play a game where I am not punished for having style.I want a game where I can sit down with my friends play characters have the same amount of karma and not look across the table and see the other mundane gun fighter rolling less dice than me because they went down a more narrow way of getting dice for shooting. Let's look at this way. What if I made stuper MOBW it cost the same amount as wired reflexes and less essence,not only did do everything wire reflexes did it also gave you plus 4 dice in physical and combat skills.

blakkie

Sep 13 2005, 11:16 PM

Post #52

Dragon

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QUOTE (Cynic project)

Hermetic alone want to be dwarves, because they are better at drain. Then again if you are trying to prove me wrong with one character type that is a damned small niche i have something to tell you, Big deal. You aren't proven me wrong you are just proving how childish you can be and how poorly you can make characters.

No, i have shown exactly what you were doing. Picking a senario to give you the results you expected/wanted.

QUOTE

So if you want to stat out this thing you are playing I will gladly say if you made a human character that is better for being human than if they were a meta type.

I'm kicking myself for wasting my time typing a 3 line response that went right over your head, :oops: and now you want me to get into some min/max duel that tries to simulate characters in play throughout their career??? :rotfl:

No thanks. But i'll let you know how that character turns out when i play him. :)

FrankTrollman

Sep 13 2005, 11:24 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (Blakkie)

Speaking of you avoiding, what ya going to do about Skill Groups purchases being used instead of Skills purchases to create the same character with a different amount of karma?

Commutation. That's actually in the mark 1 write-up of the House Rules. Simply, I let people purchase skill groups after they've purchased individual skills and have them stack. And I let people buy an individual skill up into the entire group.

And since it's all linear, it's still less math than doing it by-the-book. So yes, that's a resolved problem, it has been for some time.

QUOTE

You mean like last time in this thread where i "put up" to your misplaced demands and you shut up because you were actually talking bollocks?

No. I mean like how the only attempt at an answer you've ever given to me in this thread is:

QUOTE

Timeliness Frank, timeliness. Need/use at a moment affects true value, and needs vary over time.

Which is so mired in Yoda-speak as to be entirely meaningless. Everything else you've written to me has been just a bunch of insults about how attempting to use math to balance character advancement more is stupid and futile because the game will never be 100% balanced under any circumstances, and therefore I'm some sort of moron and a jerk. It's all very puzzling.

Yes, you've had the argument that characters who spend less on a +1 bonus to a few stats may (or may not) get an adventure or more with their half-assed bonus over someone who saves up to get a +1 bonus to more things all at one. And yes, other people have put that way better than you have, and no it's not a very compelling argument. After all, by the time you've done that twice, the timeliness advantages of the half-assed bonuses are completely negated and more by the more efficient bonuses costing less overall.

So no, you still haven't "put up". You've just hollered a couple of times and thrown monkey feces.

-Frank

Taki View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 11:47 PM Post #54
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343	bouhu my poor head hurts. people angry :( How much really cost the diplomacy skill ? It seems worthless ...

Xenith View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 11:58 PM Post #55
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	I dont think a middle line is possible so long as people are tossing about words demeaning to others intelligence. I think both understand the others position.... and don't care. Seems to be alot of this nowadays....

FrankTrollman

Sep 14 2005, 12:19 AM

Post #56

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QUOTE (Xenith)

I think both understand the others position.... and don't care.

That's certainly the impression that I get from blakkie. I don't actually understand his position however. He seems to be suggesting that doing math is hard enough that he refuses to check my figures as to whether they are a good idea or not. And to be reacting out of fear to the unknown when I make suggestions.

The level of helpfulness in his responses has been really low. My suggestions have been stalked by blakkie being an asshat:

QUOTE

Hell i wouldn't even rate it as high as a Sunday School song rewritten by Andrew Dice Clay and scratched into the back of a urinal.

QUOTE

I just thought of a great marketing slogan for your house rules!

"Frankie Trollman: Cutting out important, relavent facts to make the math easier and clearer since 2005."

QUOTE

Ah man Frank, you just keep coming up with gems. I can just picture you, in a completely straight face, going: "This water is wet. Which all can plainly see is a design problem with the water. We need to change this to make swimming fair!"

QUOTE

But Frank isn't really talking about making things fair and balanced either. He is flat out ignoring, once again, that different paths have different costs and bring different benefits/pitfalls.

QUOTE

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

QUOTE

Yes, well that isn't exactly shocking to find you having problems understanding somthing.

QUOTE

If that is someone that thinks Frank is a blathering, confusion spreading prat that tends to wilt the collective IQ of any room he enters you shouldn't be surprised to find more than one person with a like opinion.

I mean, he hasn't added anything to this, or any other discussion. Mostly he just follows me around and throws monkey feces. It's really difficult to have a coherent discussion with other people who are trying to achieve something when he's being such a dick all over the place.

-Frank

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 14 2005, 12:27 AM

Post #57

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QUOTE (Cynic project)

And real life isn't fair. I play games that are fair because of it. I don't want to play a game like life.I want to play a game where I am not punished for having style.I want a game where I can sit down with my friends play characters have the same amount of karma and not look across the table and see the other mundane gun fighter rolling less dice than me because they went down a more narrow way of getting dice for shooting.

Let's look at this way. What if I made stuper MOBW it cost the same amount as wired reflexes and less essence,not only did do everything wire reflexes did it also gave you plus 4 dice in physical and combat skills.

And the game is fair. Everyone has the SAME oportunities to build their characters, unless your GM is horrible. You could all go down the same path, or different paths.

You're argument is based around players with no GM control. Or where the GM isn't doing his job.

My argument is based around GM's doing their job. Looking at what their players create. Using abstract thought to balance out and fill in the game the way its designed to be. Players can do anything they want however they want, if their GM lets them.

Don't claim a system is broken, when its realy the GM's fault for not policing his players like he should.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 14 2005, 12:34 AM

Post #58

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE (Xenith)

I think both understand the others position.... and don't care.

That's certainly the impression that I get from blakkie. I don't actually understand his position however. He seems to be suggesting that doing math is hard enough that he refuses to check my figures as to whether they are a good idea or not. And to be reacting out of fear to the unknown when I make suggestions.

The level of helpfulness in his responses has been really low. My suggestions have been stalked by blakkie being an asshat:

QUOTE

Hell i wouldn't even rate it as high as a Sunday School song rewritten by Andrew Dice Clay and scratched into the back of a urinal.

QUOTE

I just thought of a great marketing slogan for your house rules!

"Frankie Trollman: Cutting out important, relavent facts to make the math easier and clearer since 2005."

QUOTE

Ah man Frank, you just keep coming up with gems. I can just picture you, in a completely straight face, going: "This water is wet. Which all can plainly see is a design problem with the water. We need to change this to make swimming fair!"

QUOTE

But Frank isn't really talking about making things fair and balanced either. He is flat out ignoring, once again, that different paths have different costs and bring different benefits/pitfalls.

QUOTE

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

QUOTE

Yes, well that isn't exactly shocking to find you having problems understanding somthing.

QUOTE

If that is someone that thinks Frank is a blathering, confusion spreading prat that tends to wilt the collective IQ of any room he enters you shouldn't be surprised to find more than one person with a like opinion.

I mean, he hasn't added anything to this, or any other discussion. Mostly he just follows me around and throws monkey feces. It's really difficult to have a coherent discussion with other people who are trying to achieve something when he's being such a dick all over the place.

-Frank

Well Frank I'll just point you to my last reply to Cynic. The problem is not with the system. But the GM.

The system breaks down when the GM doesn't do what he's supposed to.

QUOTE

GAMEMASTER’S APPROVAL
Gamemasters make the fi nal decision as to whether a character
should be allowed in the game. While this seems like a lot of power to
give one person, character creation should be shared between gamemaster
and player, working together to make characters that fi t the
style of game and the level of play. Bringing a cybered-up, gun-toting
monster ork into a subtle game full of mysterious elven magic-users
would probably be frowned upon, so check with the gamemaster
fi rst and try to work with him or her to achieve a balance between
the needs of the group and story and your own personal goals.

If your GM allows this type of thing Frank well then maybe you need to sit down and talk with him. The system isn't broken plain and simple.

Xenith View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 12:39 AM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	I think he feels that the core rules are just fine and don't need explaination or alteration. While I don't agree with this, I can accept it. Its not a bad thing to go with the rules. Its also not a bad thing to make house rules you feel enhances your game play. And either side jumping up and down calling each other names doesn't help. Its kinda counter productive and really annoying. Lets just calm down. Now, blakkie, what we are trying to do... or at least I am trying to do... is pass around some ideas. Kinda digest them and see if they work well. Tweak some stuff out and see what works best for our differing styles of play. Its going to hard and much of it will bomb out under pressure, but we will likely get something positive from it somehow. Perhaps in testing and tweaking we find the rules more solid than we thought. Maybe not. Don't know til we try. Experimentation is usually enlightening, and in this case we don't have to kill the rats... we just gun them down with a Panther Assault cannon. ^_^ Go ahead and toss some idea of your own, it would be much appreciated.

Cynic project View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 12:58 AM Post #60
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543	I play games where the GM and players work together try to let everyone have fun. The GM should have that power and maybe even more my point is that the GM shouldn't need it.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 14 2005, 01:37 AM

Post #61

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QUOTE (Cynic project)

I play games where the GM and players work together try to let everyone have fun. The GM should have that power and maybe even more my point is that the GM shouldn't need it.

He doesn't IF his players don't try to abuse the system like you suggest for the reason the system is 'broken'.

All depends on the players if he has to exercise such power. If you're playing in a game where you and the gm work together to do all of this, then wheres the problem?

FrankTrollman

Sep 14 2005, 01:45 AM

Post #62

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Look, Shadow, there's a very simple thing that you need to understand:

QUOTE (Oberoni)

If you say that the system does not need fixing because the GM can change the things that need fixing, you are wrong.

Sure, the GM can work with the players to work around virtually any problems with the system. In fact, even absolute problems like the fact that characters can require different amounts of karma to end up in the same place can be sidestepped by the GM by handing out compensatory individual karma awards to the underperforming character concepts. But you know what? That doesn't mean that problems don't exist, and it doesn't mean that people shouldn't fix the problems that do.

In fact, role playing can be entertaining and successful with no rules whatsoever. Munchausen is a great game, and so is "cops and robbers". But we aren't playing those games, we are playing Shadowrun. And the reason why we play games with written histories and game mechanics instead of sitting around playing Magical Teaparty is because of fairness.

Magical Teaparty works just fine as long as everyone agrees on the direction of the story. We can all sit around and have running conversations with our teddy bears and it'll be great. But the problem with this set-up is the same problem as Cops and Robbers has - disagreements do occur, and without a structured framework, it all goes to hell in a handbasket of acrimony and recriminations as soon as one person insists that his bullet didn't miss, or that he has help from the Yendorian Space Fleet. Indeed, all games have this problem, and to one degree or another attempt to circumvent it with rules. Rules about genre (for example, in a game of Shadowrun you definately don't have a Yendorian Space Fleet), and rules for conflict resolution (whether your bullet hits or not has to do with the results of your pistols check in Shadowrun).

Now, that means that rules which are unfair basically undermine the entire point of having rules at all. If the conflict resolution system is "I win, you lose" (as it is with the intense power of Spirits in the force range of seven to nine in SR4), then there's really no reason for you to abide by the rules. If the rules by themselves are not conducive to telling a good story, they are worse than just not being there.

If the GM and the players have to sidestep the rules in order for things to work out well, then the GM and the players are playing Magical Teaparty and not Shadowrun.

---

Which is why I am lobbying for the creation of house rules that make character creation and avancement more fair. So that people can have decent characters within a preagreed format of interactive storytelling. Because I know that gamers can't even agree on a set of pizza toppings, let alone keep the flow of Magical Teaparty going all evening.

-Frank

Cynic project View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 01:48 AM Post #63
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543	Um it's broken because if I take X amount of karma and put into my character I do not get the same outcome. Not even the same scale of outcome and the idea that the GM having the power to fix everything by waving their hand and saying no. A game system shouldn't need that as the basic level of how one can or can't make a character.

Shadow_Prophet View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 02:10 AM Post #64
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567	Christ you people miss everything. Frank you miss the point. There IS a structured system set up for disputes. Its why you have a GM. Thats the whole point of having a GM, to mediate disputes and to help the game along. What the hell do you think the GM is there for? You have both looked for a way to exploit the system. And you've found apparent ways to do such. All which can happen without the GM doing his job and working with the players. Strictly numericaly ignoring the GM's job. Ignoring what it says to do for a balanced and fun game. Ignoring all that, yes the game is flawed. Same with SR3, same with SR2, same with SR1. Same with every game system out there. Fine if you two constantly want to leave out major parts of the rules I won't debate with you any longer as its like talking to a brick wall.

blakkie

Sep 14 2005, 02:35 AM

Post #65

Dragon

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE

You mean like last time in this thread where i "put up" to your misplaced demands and you shut up because you were actually talking bollocks?

No. I mean like how the only attempt at an answer you've ever given to me in this thread is:

QUOTE

Timeliness Frank, timeliness. Need/use at a moment affects true value, and needs vary over time.

Er no, like:

QUOTE

Timeliness Frank, timeliness. Need/use at a moment affects true value, and needs vary over time. And yes i did mention about this already, and it is in this thread.

Where, if you are (SURPRISE!) still confused you are invited to read (reread?) the thread to date for a more information. You wouldn't have to go too far in the thread seeing as it is the post at the top of the thread.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Blakkie)

Speaking of you avoiding, what ya going to do about Skill Groups purchases being used instead of Skills purchases to create the same character with a different amount of karma?

Commutation. That's actually in the mark 1 write-up of the House Rules. Simply, I let people purchase skill groups after they've purchased individual skills and have them stack. And I let people buy an individual skill up into the entire group.

And since it's all linear, it's still less math than doing it by-the-book. So yes, that's a resolved problem, it has been for some time.

Mark 1 as in the top of this thread?

So what happens in this senario:

There is a Skill Group called School that contains the skills Readin', Writin', and 'Rithmatic, and Recess.

PC#1 and PC#2 built with identical skills sets, both start out with 1 point in each of the 4 skills mentioned.

After their first run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Readin' for PC#1.

After the second run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Writin' for PC#1.

After the third run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in 'Rithmatic for PC#1.
PC#2's player purchases a point in the School for PC#2.

So, who pays what and when, and what are their Skill levels at this point?

blakkie

Sep 14 2005, 02:38 AM

Post #66

Dragon

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

Frank you miss the point.

There IS a structured system set up for disputes. Its why you have a GM. Thats the whole point of having a GM, to mediate disputes and to help the game along.

What the hell do you think the GM is there for?

I have a sneaking suspision that it is something like "for subjecting to rules lawyering torture." ;)

FrankTrollman

Sep 14 2005, 03:06 AM

Post #67

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QUOTE (Blakkie)

So what happens in this senario:

OK, now you've started actually asking questions, instead of just being a dick. That's wonderful, and I don't mean that sarcastically. If only you could have done this like a week ago instead of just insulting me..

QUOTE (Blakkie)

There is a Skill Group called School that contains the skills Readin', Writin', and 'Rithmatic, and Recess.

PC#1 and PC#2 built with identical skills sets, both start out with 1 point in each of the 4 skills mentioned.

After their first run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Readin' for PC#1.

And now PC#1 has 2 points of Readin'.

QUOTE (Blakkie)

After the second run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Writin' for PC#1.

And now PC#1 has 2 points of Readin' and 2 points of Writin'. PC#2 has 4 unspent Karma.

QUOTE

After the third run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in 'Rithmatic for PC#1.

No he doesn't. He spends 1 Karma, upgrades the point of Readin' and the point of Writin' into a point of School, and has 2 points in the entire group and 1 Karma left over.

QUOTE

PC#2's player purchases a point in the School for PC#2.

Sure. Now PC#1 and PC#2 are in the same place and have spent the same amount. There was a period when PC#1 had higher values and PC#2 had unspent Karma which was being saved and could potentially be spent on anything.

-Frank

Cynic project

Sep 14 2005, 03:13 AM

Post #68

Running Target

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QUOTE

PC#1 and PC#2 built with identical skills sets, both start out with 1 point in each of the 4 skills mentioned.

After their first run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Readin' for PC#1.

After the second run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Writin' for PC#1.

After the third run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in 'Rithmatic for PC#1.
PC#2's player purchases a point in the School for PC#2.

So, who pays what and when, and what are their Skill levels at this point?

So PC#1 buys readin' for 2 points. Leaving PC#2 with two "karma points"
So PC#1 buys writen' for 2 points. Leaving PC#2 with four "karma points"
So PC#1 buys 'Rithmatic for 2 points. PC#2 buys school for 5 points. Leaves one point left.

So if they both started at 4 with school group they wind up with.
PC#1 with
School: 4
readin': 1
writen' : 1
'Rithmatic: 1
(the ones are added to the 4, to make five in said skills)

PC#2
School: 5

So yes in this case PC#1 had paid slightly more points to get slight less dice. But if you are trying to say this is the same as how skill groups are and attributes. You would have to change the cost of skill to 5 and the cost of skill groups to 2. Wile it is true that PC#2 is paying less points to get those skills. The attributes in the normal system not only cost less than get all the skill groups linked to said attribute. It also is cheaper than any one of the skill groups.

Autarkis View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 03:45 AM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566	But not cheaper than a skill, correct?

blakkie

Sep 14 2005, 03:50 AM

Post #70

Dragon

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE (Blakkie)

So what happens in this senario:

OK, now you've started actually asking questions, instead of just being a dick. That's wonderful, and I don't mean that sarcastically. If only you could have done this like a week ago instead of just insulting me..

QUOTE (Blakkie)

There is a Skill Group called School that contains the skills Readin', Writin', and 'Rithmatic, and Recess.

PC#1 and PC#2 built with identical skills sets, both start out with 1 point in each of the 4 skills mentioned.

After their first run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Readin' for PC#1.

And now PC#1 has 2 points of Readin'.

QUOTE (Blakkie)

After the second run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in Writin' for PC#1.

And now PC#1 has 2 points of Readin' and 2 points of Writin'. PC#2 has 4 unspent Karma.

QUOTE

After the third run PC#1 and PC#2 are awarded another 2 karma.

PC#1's player purchases a point in 'Rithmatic for PC#1.

No he doesn't. He spends 1 Karma, upgrades the point of Readin' and the point of Writin' into a point of School, and has 2 points in the entire group and 1 Karma left over.

QUOTE

PC#2's player purchases a point in the School for PC#2.

Sure. Now PC#1 and PC#2 are in the same place and have spent the same amount. There was a period when PC#1 had higher values and PC#2 had unspent Karma which was being saved and could potentially be spent on anything.

-Frank

Right, now back in the second run PC#1 and PC#2 ended up in Language Arts class, Math class, and later out in the school grounds between classes. Both PC#1 and PC#2 rolled one dice for most situations, but PC#1 got an extra Readin' die. Run #3 was the same, and PC#1 got an extra for both Readin' and Writin'.

PC#1 recieved an ingame benefit over PC#2 because PC#1's player was buying by the Skill not by the Skill Group.

So order that you buy Skills/Skill Groups is does still matter. "Well don't leave karma laying around"? Nope, order still matters....

Skill Group A; Skills A1, A2, & A3
Skill Group B; Skills B1, B2, & B3
Skill Group C; Skills C1, C2, & C3

PC#1 and PC#2 are identical PCs, each have no points in any of these Skill Groups A, B, and C, and have no karma. PC#1 and PC#2 recieve karma 10 each.

PC#1 buys a point each of A1, A2, B1, B2, and C1.

PC#2 buys a point each in A and B.

Because of the order chosen PC#2 now has more Skill points in total, 6, than PC#1, 5, even though they have both spent the same amount of karma.

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 03:54 AM Post #71
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Cynic_Project, you misread the example.

FrankTrollman

Sep 14 2005, 04:05 AM

Post #72

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QUOTE (Blakkie)

Because of the order chosen PC#2 now has more Skill points in total, 6, than PC#1, 5, even though they have both spent the same amount of karma.

Yes. Because PC#1 decided that he didn't want the other skills out of the A and B group. Remember, not all of the members of every group are important to every character. The Influence group contains Leadership, which some characters couldn't care less about. Sorcery contains Ritual Spellcasting in addition to Counterspelling and Spellcasting.

I can seriously see some characters deciding that they would rather have Ettiquette, Con, Spellcasting, Counterspelling, and Infiltration than having Ettiquette, Con, Leadership, Negotiations, Spellcasting, Counterspelling, and Ritual Spellcasting. It's not the same amount of skills, but it contains Infiltration and the other option does not.

The only way imbalance between set A and set B can be shown is if set A contains everything in set B and also costs less or has additional members that are not in set B. If set A has almost everything that is in set B and has more things that aren't in set B than set B has that aren't in set A - you haven't proved anything. Sure, that should raise some red flags, but it doesn't conclusively demonstrate anything.

Does the fact that you can 7 or 8 skills that are in skill groups for the price that it takes to get 5 skills that aren't in groups bother me? Not really. It is definately something to watch for, but as long as the skill groups contain skills that not everyone wants, I'm perfectly OK with giving people the remaining entries for very small numbers of points.

-Frank

blakkie

Sep 14 2005, 06:01 AM

Post #73

Dragon

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No, these 9 Skills listed each come up an equal number of times (within statistically significant limits) per session.

For X number of times a single Skill is used PC#2 will receive X*2 more dice to roll that session (1 per for the higher Skill, and an extra 1 per from the removal of the Defaulting penalty). If the linked Attribute for all these Skills were a modest but workable (3), that would represent an increase of more than 8% extra dice rolled (before other modifiers) across the 7 Skills in which at least one PC gained Skill.

Of course 8% isn't nearly as dramatic sounding as the a difference maker that rolling 2 dice vs. 4 dice can be, especially regarding Critical Glitches. It would also get even nastier if these were Skills that did not allow Defaulting, but adding in that is simply unnessasary to show the anomaly at this point.

So I have indeed shown not one, but two situations when using Skill Groups that work as per your house rules provide uneven benefits depending on the order in which you purchase your Skills or if you purchase by Skill Group instead of by Skill.

All in nice, neat Frankmatics.

As an added bonus the uneven benefit in the first example would be to some measure offset using the canon rules as the extra dice available to roll would come at higher karma cost in the long term. Would the offset nulify, or even reverse the benefit? That would be up to the player to apply his skills and intuition to speculate or determine. <----- this is the part you are having such a tough time wrapping your head around, that value is partially a function of time

QUOTE

Does the fact that you can 7 or 8 skills that are in skill groups for the price that it takes to get 5 skills that aren't in groups bother me? Not really. It is definately something to watch for, but as long as the skill groups contain skills that not everyone wants, I'm perfectly OK with giving people the remaining entries for very small numbers of points.

I didn't bring that up because that is a separate issue that gets into weighting of individual Skills, etc. EDIT: which should go into defining the size/content of the Group.

Xenith View Member Profile	Sep 14 2005, 07:50 AM Post #74
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	.... Riiight... more arguing... :S

blakkie

Sep 14 2005, 09:51 AM

Post #75

Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263

QUOTE (Xenith @ Sep 14 2005, 01:50 AM)

....

Riiight...

more arguing...

:S

Hey, how about an encouraging attitute instead! :P

I'm trying to meet Frank midway. He wanted to talk in concrete examples, i'm giving him one (in spite of the horrible screen area it chews). I've even done them up with calculations. He seemed deeply concerned about a difference in costs in chargen vs. after chargen (having trouble tracking the thread down though) that was i believe somewhere in the rough ballpark of the second example's 17% cost discrepency, though it was harder to quantify since it is a total of BP and karma.

So here i am trying to help with your process of elimination, illuminating the peril ahead. ;)

QUOTE

I think he feels that the core rules are just fine and don't need explaination or alteration.

Not true. Eventually people will start raising the stat caps some, the pressure for stat inflation will just be to strong. But i'll be surprised if the core itself will require more than very minor tweaks to allow it.

But i feel a lot more experience is needed with the game before making wholesale swapouts of things that aren't understood for new things. I think it is too early for people who haven't even gotten settled into the rules to be able to change them effectively. No proper baseline yet to work from, and it shows in some of the assumptions that are being made.

What should i think of people's flight to toss a year's worth of design and months of 100+ playtesters without even a mentionable fraction of that time playing?

P.S. I'm even biting my tongue about Franks "asshat" post. I didn't actually see that one till after this last post of mine, which is probably for the best. ;)

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