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> Magic Monowire, Making the Most of Weapon Foci
FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 03:01 AM
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There's nothing in SR4 to even suggest that weapon foci would have a hard time being made of high object resistance materials, so the Monowhip Weapon Focus is totally in for SR4.

That being said, Monowhips have a reach of 2, and in the new edition having an extra point of reach is just an extra die in combat - which means that it is literally interchangeable with having an extra force point. But the cost of weapon foci includes the force times the reach bonus. So having a weapon focus with reach is eventually a bad deal.

The line is at Force 3. At Force 3, your weapon focus pays as much for having point(s) of reach as it does for having additional force instead. At Force 2, the dice that come from reach are cheaper than the dice that come from Force, and at force 4 or greater the reach is a flat terrible deal.

So if you have 15 Karma to burn on a weapon focus, it's mostly a question of style. Do you want a wickedly powerful knife or a slightly less mystical monofilament wire? Either are good options. If you intend to spend any more than that, get a knife because it is better.

An interesting note is that a monowire or halberd-style weapon focus is the way to go at Force 2 or less. And the cap for a starting character's weapon focus is... you guessed it... two. So starting characters who want weapon foci should invest in high reach weapons. Prime runners should get shorter weapons late in their careers.

Thoughts?

-Frank
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hahnsoo
post Sep 13 2005, 03:04 AM
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Monowhips require a special skill and they still have that critical glitch thing going against them. Halberds also require a special skill, and they aren't even remotely concealable. I suppose this doesn't matter much, though, for Astral Combat (the main reason you would probably get a weapon focus), which uses its eponymous skill.
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SL James
post Sep 13 2005, 05:24 AM
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Given the glitch system, I wouldn't let a PC touch a monowhip with someone else's severed limb.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 06:12 AM
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The Exotic Melee Weapon skill is very poorly conceived in the rules. The text on page 112 says that you have to take a separate exotic weapon skill for every single exotic wepaon you want to use. But the only examples of actual creatures in the book that have exotic weaponry skills don't do it that way and just have exotic weapon: melee or exotic weapon: ranged. Indeed, even the descriptions of exotic melee weapons in the gear section make no mention of separate exotic weapon skills. The section actually says that
QUOTE
These weapons [Plural] require the Exotic Melee Weapon skill [Singular] to use.
So it's really an open question of what the hell they mean. The entire book, as it mentions Exotic Weaponry at all seems to contradict the skill description. The skill description is as per "Street Knowledge", but the rest of the book treats the skill as per "Artisan".

But regardless, a Monowire hits you for 8 DV if you critical glitch. Boo-frickin-hoo. That's pretty much what happens whenever you critical glitch with anything. It has the "special rule" that "The DM will annoy you or cause property damage if you glitch, and endanger your life if you critical glitch". That's not a special rule, that's what normally happens! You roll a glitch on any roll and the GM makes your life a little uncomfortable, and you critical glitch and life stinks. So that isn't news.

However, as pointed out on the huge soaks thread, you can just spend an edge to reroll failures and turn practically any critical glitch into a success. Based on the very low number of glitches that an adept with a weapon focus and a +2 Reach Weapon is ever going to see, I am unable to see this as a serious impediment to the use of a monowhip. It has specific (and modestly nasty) effects listed for when glitches happen, but these are actually not outside the realm of normal glitch effects. And since +reach weapons add dice to success tests, they are substantially less likely to glitch than ordinary weaponry.

Monowhips are the best lethal melee weapon for everyone who isn't a ginormous troll. By a substantial margin.

-Frank
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hahnsoo
post Sep 13 2005, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 13 2005, 01:12 AM)
The Exotic Melee Weapon skill is very poorly conceived in the rules. The text on page 112 says that you have to take a separate exotic weapon skill for every single exotic wepaon you want to use.

This is correct, and should be the usage that the Exotic Weapon skill takes. Also, anyone else notice that cyber-implant guns fall under Exotic Ranged Weapon now?
QUOTE
But the only examples of actual creatures in the book that have exotic weaponry skills don't do it that way and just have exotic weapon: melee or exotic weapon: ranged.
Actually, the critters in the book follow the rules on p287 under Elemental Attack and p289 under Natural Weapon. If it's a ranged weapon, then it falls under its own Exotic Ranged Weapon skill (assumed to be its Natural Ranged weapon or Elemental Attack... I don't think any critter has both), and if it's a melee weapon then it's under Unarmed Combat. None of them use Exotic Melee Weapon as a skill.
QUOTE
Monowhips are the best lethal melee weapon for everyone who isn't a ginormous troll. By a substantial margin.
Or an adept with enough Killing Hands/Critical Strike. Again, I'd just like to point out that if you intend to use it in Astral Combat (whether perceiving or projecting) against astral entities, you use Willpower+Astral Combat skill.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 06:46 AM
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QUOTE
Actually, the critters in the book follow the rules on p287 under Elemental Attack and p289 under Natural Weapon.


Yes they do. But those rules are not consistent with the rules on page 112 for Exotic Weapon: Melee and Exotic Weapon: Ranged. The rules on page 287 for eloemental attack are that you roll Agility + Exotic Ranged Weapon to attack, not that you have to choose "Elemental Attack" as your Exotic Ranged Weapon.

The rules on page 112 are that you have a skill called "Exotic Ranged Weapon: Elemental Attack" that only applies to your Elemental Attack power. The rules on page 287 are that you have a skill called "Exotic Ranged Weapon" and it is added to your Elemental Attack rolls (regardless of whatever else it does).

This is a huge discrepency. And there isn't a single example anywhere in the entire book of any character or creature following the rules on page 112 - though there are many examples of creatures following the rules on page 287.

I mean, on page 149 there is a list of melee weapons. It tells you that cyber implant weaponry can be used with the blades or the exotic melee skill. Since there isn't a single advantage to the exotic melee skill over the blades skill according to page 112, that's immediately suspect. Of course, the rest of the chart says that the exotic melee skill is also used to attack with chains and monofilament chainsaws - so according to page 149 there actually is a reason you might want to use Exotic Melee Weapon as the skill that powers your spurs.

QUOTE
(assumed to be its Natural Ranged weapon or Elemental Attack... I don't think any critter has both)


Dragons in the basic book have access to Elemental Attackand Corrosive Spit. And only one Exotic Ranged Attack skill which is itself untyped, as per the entire rest of the book save for page 112.

-Frank
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hahnsoo
post Sep 13 2005, 07:05 AM
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*shrugs* I know what point you are trying to push here, but I also know the intent (and the letter) of the rules presented for Exotic Weapons. I understand you have reservations with the error of omission of "Exotic Blah Weapon: Blah" throughout the book. Perhaps it should be errata (seeing as the other example of mis-labeled skills, the Tasking skill group, was corrected in errata as well), and maybe you can catalog the instances that should be corrected in the book.

This doesn't change the fact that by design, Exotic Melee Weapon and Exotic Ranged Weapon were never meant to encompass several different weapons... if they were, then they'd be folded into the Close Combat and Firearms skill group respectively, or be their own skill group. If they encompassed several different weapons, at the very least they'd have specializations in those individual weapons.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 13 2005, 07:35 AM
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At least, Exotic Weapons (Lasers) gets you the skill to handle all lasers.

Depending on the handling of a weapon, there may be more than one covered by this skills...
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Sabosect
post Sep 13 2005, 08:07 AM
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It also allows for some abuse, though I hope not as much as SR3 in the weapons we will be seeing.

I have seen all of the following Exotic Weapon choices in my games under SR3:

Municipal Property, Metahuman Limbs, Metahumans (and specific types of metahumans), House Cats, Rattlesnakes, Drop Bears, Watermelons, Chairs, Desks, 20th Century Bank Loan Forms, UCAS Tax Codes, The Holy Bible, Lutherans, Sheep, Goats, The Great Krass, Peat Moss, Logs, Rowboats, Body Odor, Car Doors, Severed Heads, Cyderdecks, Coats, Pool Balls, Pool Sticks, Pool Tables, Portable pools, Port-o-podies, Toilets, Smilies (this was for Matrix combat), Ceiling Fans, Alarm Clocks, Frozen Bread, Soda Bottles, Beer Bottles, Metahuman Waste, Monkeys, Fridges, Pencils, Pens, Ceiling Tiles, Floor Tiles, Strato-9 Drones, Tank Treads, Tires, Gasoline Canisters, Car Batteries, Nuclear Waste, Dictionaries, Encyclopedias, Dice Bags, Roleplaying Books, CDs, Trash Cans, Jackie Chan, and Lone Star Officers.

So, yeah, I have good reason to pay careful attention to making sure I don't face people trying to use DocWagon employees as exotic weapons.
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Oracle
post Sep 13 2005, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 13 2005, 10:07 AM)
The Great Krass

OFF TOPIC: That's your gaming group? I nearly laughed to death while reading through your entries in the Shadowrun Quote File... :rotfl: More power to money sucking lawyers!! :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:
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blakkie
post Sep 13 2005, 08:21 AM
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They missed one: Flaming Hot Mozza!
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Sabosect
post Sep 13 2005, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (Oracle @ Sep 13 2005, 03:21 AM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 13 2005, 10:07 AM)
The Great Krass

OFF TOPIC: That's your gaming group? I nearly laughed to death while reading through your entries in the Shadowrun Quote File... :rotfl: More power to money sucking lawyers!! :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:

No. I had someone who wanted a campaign to kidnap Krass and use him as a weapon. The other players shot him to death in the game.
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Oracle
post Sep 13 2005, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
I had someone who wanted a campaign to kidnap Krass and use him as a weapon.

:D Hopefully they didn't shoot the character but the player...
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Sabosect
post Sep 13 2005, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
They missed one: Flaming Hot Mozza!

Well, I had one player who wanted to take Exotic Weapons (Dikoted Ally Spirit Sex Slave) after reading these boards, but a sound beating convinced him otherwise.

QUOTE
:D Hopefully they didn't shoot the character but the player...


Rubber band guns were banned at the playing table after that. He's also the one who tried the Lone Star Officers one, so I have had to ban squirt guns as well.
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booklord
post Sep 13 2005, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE
There's nothing in SR4 to even suggest that weapon foci would have a hard time being made of high object resistance materials, so the Monowhip Weapon Focus is totally in for SR4.


Doesn't the weapon have to made with Orchilium anymore? Wouldn't that completely disable the mon-filiment part of the whip?

In any event as a GM my answer would be "No".
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Fortune
post Sep 13 2005, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE (booklord @ Sep 13 2005, 10:48 PM)
Doesn't the weapon have to made with Orchilium anymore?  Wouldn't that completely disable the mon-filiment part of the whip?

They never did! At worst, Orichalcum only had to be used in the enchanting process of a Weapon Focus. The weapon itself did not have to be composed of the substance.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
This doesn't change the fact that by design, Exotic Melee Weapon and Exotic Ranged Weapon were never meant to encompass several different weapons...


OK, please explain why anyone would ever use "Exotic Melee Weapon" to power their cyber spurs (an option listed on page 149) when they can use the Blades skill instead, as described on the same page. As per the the rules on page 112, Exotic Melee Weapon is exactly like Blades except that it doesn't also let you use a combat axe, doesn't let you specialize in your weapon of choice, and doesn't improve when you buy up the close combat group.

So why is that option there? Clearly either the author of that table is a god damned idiot, or thought that Exotic Melee Weapon functioned like Artisan and let you use a number of Exotic Weapons. Otherwise there's no point in that option even existing.

So if it's "design intent" for Exotic Melee Weapon to be such a crappy skill (as described on page 112), why is the rest of the book written as if it were not? (Pages 149, 287, 289, 295, 296, 305, 309, 317, 327, 328) How come you think that the description of the skill on one page trumps every single description of the use of that skill on 10 different pages?

Isn't 10 entries more of the book than 1 page? Doesn't that count for more design intent?

-Frank
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 13 2005, 03:27 PM
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Exotic Weapon for implanted blades is required, if those Blades are implanted in an odd way: Footblades, Kneeblades, you name it.
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Fortune
post Sep 13 2005, 03:38 PM
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According to the book, Cyber-Implants can also be a specialization of Unarmed Combat.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 13 2005, 03:40 PM
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Yeah... where's the problem?
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Yeah... where's the problem?

The problem is that the book says that you can use Unarmed Combat or Blades to use cyberweapons. Any Cyberweapons.

The cyberweapon descriptions themselves don't even mention you having to use Exotic Melee Weapons if you put them somewhere dumb.

-Frank
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 13 2005, 04:01 PM
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It doesn't have to? Exotic Weapon describes exceptions.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 13 2005, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
It doesn't have to? Exotic Weapon describes exceptions.

That's great, but it doesn't say that it is exclusive.

As the rules stand now, you can use unarmed combat or blades for a spur anywhere on your body. You can use exotic melee weapon for a spur anywhere on your body that you can convince your GM is "unusual".

But... there is no advantage in doing that if you follow the Exotic Melee Weapon rules on page 112. You're much better off just using unarmed combat (which costs the same, can be specialized, and adds to your defense pool in close combat even when your spurs are retracted).

Unless you interpret Exotic Melee Weapons as per the entire rest of the book, there is no reason to ever take it for any cyber weapons, no matter how unusual they are.

-Frank
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Fortune
post Sep 13 2005, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Yeah... where's the problem?

I didn't say there was one. It just hadn't been mentioned until then, and as I was recently working on a character that uses Spurs, I went back and checked to see if what I was doing was canon. :)
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blakkie
post Sep 13 2005, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 13 2005, 10:06 AM)
As the rules stand now, you can use unarmed combat or blades for a spur anywhere on your body. You can use exotic melee weapon for a spur anywhere on your body that you can convince your GM is "unusual".

... or if the GM is convinced already that it is unusual enough that that particular cyber doesn't belong under Unarmed Combat, where upon your options dwindle quickly.

Of course only an absolute dick GM would consider things like obvious, but normally shaped cyber limb an implant that requires an Exotic Weapon skill.
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