 Why Go Wireless?, Help with reasons why. |
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 Sep 14 2005, 02:10 PM
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#26
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Hoppelhäschen 5000  Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951  |
How nice of you... internal routing is free again in SR4 by canon. |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:12 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well considering cash is not really a option. Considering you can't go into prety much A AA or AAA sec zones without broadcasting your sin and such. Yeah I'd prety much say its damn near imposible to get along without them. As for the RFID tags I wasn't really talking about them. For purposes of my game i'm not overly keeping track of them and i'm assuming that my runners have been smart and removed the tags from atleast their running clothing. And i'm not going to make them declare that they remove the tag everytime they go out for another set of underware or socks. |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:12 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,363 |
Rotbart: What page is that?
At any rate, the reason I did that was because I agree with the original poster; that there is really no advantage to running your 'ware wireless otherwise. |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:15 PM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:16 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,363 |
Thanks.
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Sep 14 2005, 02:31 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Every external device will need a 50Y skinlink adaptation. Cyber should already take advantage of skinlink. If you can thread 20m+ of nano-circuity through the nervous system, you should be able to add a couple of 2" sections to establish redundant links between any given piece of ware to the skin. That's assuming you can't use an induction effect to send signals to the skin. With a Comm, Predator, cybereyes/goggles and 100-150Y of skinlink (100 for eyes, 150 for goggles) you have all the performance of the classic induction pads. Going back to Joe User, why would he pay for that? A 'runner is going to have end up with a couple hundred nuyen tied up in skinlink between various firearms, audio/video display devices, and tools. That's more in skinlink that he paid for his Comm. Only when Joe has something to lose will he bother with the extra security. Instead he'll rely on the fact that he's merely one of the teeming millions. The odds of anyone hacking him are low as long as he remains one of those teeming millions and doesn't develop any individuality. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:37 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
I must confess to being confused a little about the wireless stuff.
I just cannot perceive of a single character going around with anything wireless. But it would help me if someone could answer some questions for me. When turning all wireless devices off - and going into wired or skinlinked mode.. are you still able to perceive AR through glasses? I am assuming that the glasses do not see AR - that the commlink does, and translates them to the glasses.. and with the commlink wireless off, AR scenery vanishes. Is this the case? Is it possible to have a commlink in receive mode only? So that you can perceive AR objects, but without sending anything back to them? Surely that would prevent a hacker/technomancer hacking into them, as it would not allow 2-way communication. A hacker could possibly 'send' commands to the device, but never know the result of them, which should surely make it next to impossible to hack unless you know the exact make and specifics about firewall/os/system etc. Even then, the worst they could do would be to crash it (we're assuming that turning on 2-way communication can't be done just by sending in a signal). |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:40 PM
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#33
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
While I agree with that, is it canon? Also ... if you put the Skinlink mod on a Commlink, can it still be used in the normal wireless manner in regards to any non-Skinlinked accessories, or do all of your other gadgets have to be Skinlinked? |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:46 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As long as you don't disable it wireless features, it can.
A nice advantage of a PAN is that gear doesn't have to be in direct contact to be accessed... allowing a greater freedom in shuffling load. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:56 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
If you are not online, no you can not see AR. And the recieve mode is essentialy hidden mode. But realy why would people be wirelessly active. Communication with the team. With the wireless mesh network you can set up a comm network with your team allowing them to send voice, text, and picture messages and such back and forth with just thoughts. Want to know what your teamate is seeing as he's peeking around the corner? That wireless mesh network can do it for you. Guard too close for you to even risk subvocalizing, or you don't have a mic? Mental text message. Mapping. Hacker could pull up a map of the facility and even mark where the guards are on it and where you are. Theres one example of this using the employee's RFID tags in the book, and one of Using the security camera's to do this in the book. These are the two main things wireless PAN's will be used for by runners. And for those two reasons alone I have no idea why you'd want to be completely free of wireless. The sheer usefullness of those two things to runners is astounding. This also means you should know how to hide your data trail (not that hard of a task) or have a hacker do it for you. Either way if you've covered your tracks it isn't likely you'll be hacked on a run. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:58 PM
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#36
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Of course you can. You just don't get any updates, and in order to actual overlay reality you need a Camera or such. |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:04 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
The very idea that Corps wouldn't detect (let alone hack automatically by use of Agents or whatever replaces agents in 4th) unauthorized wireless links on their grounds and immediately act (by tracking and sending security if nothing else) is... a major probem with my personal suspension of disbelief. I'm growing doubtful of 4th edition. Still getting the book and will make the final decision then, but getting doubtful. |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:07 PM
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#38
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, as it was stated multiple times before, in areas without public traffic, sometimes scanners are being used as security measure.
As a PAN extends about 3m and therefore is detectable, it is even explicitly recommended to turn it of when infiltrating... |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:20 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
And yet we have people here stating they are not going to turn them off when infiltrating. Now mind, I don't have the book yet. But reading this thread and seeing people advance the advantages of being up and running while infiltrating, I think the explicit recommandation didn't take so well. However even assuming this is true, we run into problems. However I think I'll bow out as I don't really know what I'm talking about yet and won't until I get the book. All I can said now for certain is that I'm growing concerned from the rumors I'm hearing. |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:20 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 03 Member No.: 5,492 |
Nyxll wrote:
Looks like several people have responded.. I will just add this: Everyday in 2005 people are giving away their privacy. We sign up for meaninless offers, give out Social Security Numbers to companies that don't have the authority to use them, sign up for 14 different "free" credit reports, that send out their histories to countless companies... Its all a struggle between privacy and convenience. RFID tags are just a natually progression of this tactic. Sure when a runner goes down to a StufferShack and buys a gallon of Soy Milk it has an RFID tag in it. If the runner purchases that with a credit account and sends his SIN then in theory someone could track that sale and that RFID tag on the Soy Milk. The problem with destroying the RFID tag would be that companies would not want that to happen. They want their merchandise to be tracked and tagged.. So all these different technologies could work together and provide information and details to other devices and appliances. That container of Soy Milk that you buy and go home and put in your refridgerator. The refridgerator takes note of that RFID tag and the information from it (spoil date, purchase date, etc.) and so.. in 5 days when the runner goes back to his fridge, the screen on the fridge says "The Soy Milk is half full, you have 5 more days of freshness." a few days later the fridge is saying "Shall I order more milk from TurboDrone Grocer? They have a special on SoyMilk today!" Other product that do not "expire" would use the RFID tag for warrenty information, product recalls, manuals, etc. RFID tags would allow the device to have an easier time connecting to a home's computer node with the correct settings, etc. Destroying RFID tags would enhance your privacy, but also reduce your daily convenience by the same amount. |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:26 PM
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#41
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, the RFID could even be outfitted with a Sensor to notice if the milk goes sour. ;)
On the other hand, you could fry with a tag eraser (which is Forbidden) normal and 'stealth' RFIDs (which are cheap), just not the hardened security tags (which are not). |
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Sep 14 2005, 05:00 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
You were right before. I did misspeak slightly. Assuming the shades you're refering to are wired to you, through your datajack, or prehapse skinlink, they could display augmented reality things such as the number of bullets in your gun, or files. But thats about the extent of it if you're completely offline. And you are actualy wrong in one respect. PAN's are NOT recomended to be turned OFF. It says don't have your PAN in active mode while on a run. IE don't hold up a big neon sign saying 'Hey I'm a Shadowrunner in your facility and I need to be ventilated!' or walking through the front door up to the security desk and saying 'Hi we're shadowrunners and we're going to be doing a little run 3 floors up just incase you know you want to send security to stop us.'. HIDDEN mode is there for a reason.
If you're hidden, unless you specificaly access their wireless network, you're OK. I didn't realize that was so hard to comprehend. When you pull up that map, you're not hidden, this is when you spoof your datatrail. But that mesh network between you and your friends isn't going to be picked up if you stay in hidden mode. |
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Sep 14 2005, 05:22 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
First of all you are not looking to crack the signal, just detect that it is there. It is very simple to have sensors that just listen for signals... when it is triggered a security challenge request would be broadcasted.... if there is not answer, then an alarm is triggered.
That is just silly. I cannot believe that you think you have to be within a few meters to do a full spectrum jam. All you need is a stronger signal. (wow, revolutionary huh?)
Actually as a player I worry about the details. The reason why this would not exist is because of little details like these.
Again Hidden mode, doesn't stop broadcasting, it no longer broadcasts the ID.... you do not need the id to lock in on a signal... just ask jet planes. Ever use wardriving software? it will tell you there is a network there, and the ID is hidden.
What you do not seem to understand is that data is travelling through the air and has the potential to collide. You can pick up stray packets.
You only need the ACCESSID if you want to gain access or to decyber the data. with devices the potential for cross talk is lowered with the ACCESSID, but it still doesn't mask the fact that there is a signal there, and no amount of technology will erase that. THAT is why wireless is shortcoming. |
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Sep 14 2005, 05:33 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
This is totally wrong. You need to pick the data and assemble it in the proper order. A facility could potentially keep broadcasting all their data in a UDP fashion, but that would just make things too noisy. It is not like you are picking up on a sound feed, that is linear. The information you see in AR is based on where you are, and other feedback. You could potentially snoop someone else's signal... but you will see their AR ... not yours. People that subscribe to a complete wireless future are the same suckers that would have bought into the DOT.com boom. I have some really awesome startup stocks for you wireless believers. The benefits of wireless are not that earth shattering. Sure there are times when it is needed and an advantage, as is the same with a cellphone and radios. Over utilizing it is just silly, and shows a lack a common sense. |
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Sep 14 2005, 05:46 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with you and Nyxll on this. I'm just not buying this future that 4th edition seems to be selling. Of course I never bought into the future of previous editions either. But they were fun. I'm not really sure this version will be, but that likely because I never minded the solo decker runs. |
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Sep 14 2005, 06:03 PM
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#46
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Here's a few reasons I can think of why Joe Sammy might want to make his stuff PAN/wireless enabled (without going into disadvantages, just a pure list of good things)
1) Smartlink: teammates can see what you are shooting at, your ammo/weapon status, etc. 2) Biomonitor: friends can see your condition 3) Internal air tank: as soon as one team mates detects gas, he turns on the air tanks of all team mates 4) Wired reflexes: in a surprise situation, a friendly that rolls good on his test and is thus not surprised turns on the wired reflexes of his friends 5) Cybereyes: kinda same as smartlink, you see what he sees 6) Olfactory/taste booster (and other data gathering cyber, in fact): one guy collects data, everyone pools knowledge on what is being sensed ( a group test for every substance identification test) That's all of the top of my head... basically, data gathering cyber, such as cybereyes, ears, etc, provide clear advantages to beign shared. Offensive cyber (cyberguns, wired reflexes, cyberlimbs) can be made wireless so that team mates can "help" you use it, but I can't see how the reward would outweigh the risk in such a case. |
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Sep 14 2005, 06:06 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Wireless data service is good, wireless devices are good. Not that everyone needs them.
But look at it from Joe Normal's point of view. He has his Comm. It's a phone, iPod, PDA, gameboy, credit card, and ID all by itself, no extras required. Wires are a hassle so he probably has wireless headphones/mic for his telephony/mp3/gaming needs. The dinky screen is a drag so for 50-75Y he can pick up a set of glasses or contacts that give him a virtual megascreen. He decides he doesn't like juggling the comm while playing games so for Xmas he splurges and gets AR gloves for 250Y. If he had wires this would be a mess as they run from his glasses, his ears, and his hands down to a PDA device. Ack! Short-range wireless means he puts on his gloves and they work. Sure, he could go with a skinlink setup, adding 200Y to the cost of the package but....why? There's no interference between devices so his gear only shuts down if it were jammed and he's a law-abiding drone so that's no risk. His gear could be hacked but again, he's one schmoe out of a couple million. Wires are used by the poor, the out of date, and the paranoid. Skinlink is used by the rich paranoid. Even if you had skinlink, you might want to enable wireless from time to time. Want your buddy to hear the game? Sorry, you've got to keep touching the headset. How about passing over the AR shades so they can see the last vacation you took? Ooops, still gotta keep a hand on their head. Wireless without risk of interference and where hacking requires more than enabling diagnostic mode has lots of advantages. Just....not as many to criminals who want to remain out of sight and undetectable. |
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Sep 14 2005, 06:18 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
Joe shmoe never goes on a shadowrun. Ok for your house wireless is a major convenience... A friend of mine has a blue tooth ear piece for his phone. That is fine for driving in the car or walking down the street. On a run, you want to keep vulnerabilities to a minimum as well as keep a low signature. Why do black ops teams keep radio silence? Because they do not want anyone to over hear them, or to detect them. Any data worth keeping will be isolated either by private wireless or a wired lan. If you went through all the trouble to penetrate a facility why give yourself away? Each of those devices has a signature, there is a chance that another device would pick it up. Granted that not every facility will have listening devices everywhere, but in sensitive areas it is just as easy to put in a listener as it is to put in ultrasound. They odds are the two would be integrated into the same security zone. For joe laman security, and detection will not matter ... for the professional ... it will. Joe laman is not going to have a smartlink or expensive devices. This would also make it so could disable a strike team with a jammer. Since they could not use their gear. |
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Sep 14 2005, 06:50 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
If you had read all my replies you would have seen where I corrected myself Nyxll. I don't need 'wardriving' software to tell me if there is a wireless network in the area and if its ID is hidden or not. I already have standard everyday software that comes equiped with my wireless card that does that for me. You're attention to details is admirable, but in general come on. I don't know of a GM out there that will bug you about batteries for your comlink unless you're out for a extended period of time without access to power. Heck they took worrying about MP and such out because it was too much of micromanaging.
Well lucky us we don't have to decide weather or not wireless will take over in reality or not. I for one believe it will in time. In shadowrun if you take a look at the time line it took 5-6 years for it to make it where it is in 2070 and a major infrasturcture crash. Take a look at NO currently. Telephone lines are down for the most part. Power is only available in select portions of the CBD. But verizon and i believe cingular have both been working to restore cell service, so cell service is king there at the moment, as are sat phones. Now look at the crash of '64. Wired matrix's prety much died. A new technology that had been developed and was out there was ready to take the place of the wired matrix's and it did. Imagine that. As for jamming, sure you could do that. A more powerful signal would probably stop most if not all of the shadowrunner's network. So as I said, even if you didn't have to get close to do it, you're still prety much fragged as there went communications (and yes that probably means your little transciever is done too). So the only real advantage there that you got from not being wireless is you have the skinlink for your smartlink. Damn you got me. I guess theres no reason to go wireless at all.
Thats actualy shown in one of the chapter openings, part of the building being sealed off from outside signals with signal dampners in the walls, changing to a completely different grid.
Seems to me the security system didn't pick up their mesh network, it picked up him when he hacked in. He was the unauthorized user of the network. But hey, you don't have to run wireless if you don't want to, you're still subject to jamming, ie your radio and such, so not being wireless doesnt' give you any more of a edge over non-detection. Infact, it limits your ability to respond to it in certain instances. |
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Sep 14 2005, 07:32 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
I think I am just repeating what some people have said, basically that having a wirless system and an interlinked network of all your runners just makes things easier. In the same way that battle tec in SR3 just made things easier and better. its just now that the world as a whole is using the stuff not just military groups.
As for picking up different signals and alerting gaurds. I can`t find anything in the PDF about these devices or how they work so I can`t really comment. Of course I could just be missing them. I can see where needing to see and access all the aros would help on a run. Of course some hacking would need to be done to allow you to appear as a recognized user. Like having doors with no handles or visable locks, just aros of a keypad that wage slaves would see and have to enter a code on. People without a comlink wont even know how the door opened. It doesnt even have to be a keypad, it could just be a button, one easy way to limit access to an area. I think alot depends on the game you play. In the world I run my players have all used comunication devices of one kind or another on a run and I have never used that to alert security. I would imagine that my players will take alot of care what data is available on there coms and what modes they are in when, but I think at least a few of them will live a wireless existence. |
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