 Duel Natured Ghouls?, vamps and ghouls oh my |
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 Sep 14 2005, 03:06 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 14-September 05 Member No.: 7,740  |
Yea, i was just checking out that Ghouls are now Duel Natured (SR4 pg.292)
As i'm trying to put Vampires into my campaign i was wondering if all HMHVV strains cause you to become Duel Natured. If so, Vampires need to have the power added. of course i do understand that Magically active individuals wouldn't need to be duel natured because they can already perceive astrally. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:16 AM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ghouls have always been Dual Natured. Even back in 1st edition, when the official line was that becoming a Ghoul was a metatype rather than a disease (and thus, PCs couldn't "catch it" under any circumstances). Ghoulishness was made into a strain of HMHVV much later, apparently at the behest of greedy players who wanted to staple the best metatype bonuses in the game on top of being a troll. I've never supported that move, and in my home campaign Ghouls still goblinize.
Ghouls don't do any of the standard HMHVV things. They die of old age, they have to eat, they don't drain essence, they don't bleed essence. And this is the big one: they don't require that their meals ever had a soul! Ghouls are perfectly capable of surviving off the leavings from organ cloning vats. That being said, sufferers of HMHVV are not in fact Dual Natured. Dzoo-Noo-Qua are not dual natured, Wendigo are not dual natured, Banshee are not dual natured, you get the idea. The fact that Ghouls are Dual Natured is more proof that the entire plotline about Ghouls being the product of HMHVV infection is completely absurd. You might as well say that Trolls come from HMHVV because they are strong and have sharp teeth. Stupid fragging powergamers screwing up the metaplot. Razzlfrazzit. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:58 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 14-September 05 Member No.: 7,740 |
HAHA thats great Frank. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I always thought ghouls to be along the lines of a normal person w/ zombism, Still able to move around talk to others, just kind of have to eat flesh of metas to live.
Thats why when i saw they were part of the HMHVV strain i was kind of thrown for a loop, but just went with it. Just so you know the vampires aren't PC's but enemies....i hate power gamers as well :P |
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Sep 14 2005, 10:41 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Actually when you look at Earthdawn, ghouls were similar to horror constructs and its doesn't take to much of a strain to blame HMHVV on Earthdawn era horrors either. Thus, ghouls as a result of HMHVV was never really a stretch IMO. |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:12 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Well, that may or may not be entirely true. Did anyone cross check to see if the strain of HMHVV that creates vampires and ghouls is the same strain that creates banshees and the others? Because there are at least 3 different strain of that disease and I don't see it being too far fetched for a disease to cause you to become dual natured.
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Sep 14 2005, 02:25 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Krieger Strain, which is their very own.
All you never wanted to know about the convoluted canon of HMHVV but were forced to ask: http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/HMHVV.htm#2 Note that Ancient gives the description in-character except for raised boxes of OOC text or quotes from books. So it states: Initially mistaken for a further form of Goblinization, ghouls were later properly categorized among the Infected. I don't know if that was the offical FASA line, or if that was Ancient putting a nice coat of shiny on it himself. |
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Sep 14 2005, 02:39 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Yeah, I need to remember that anything I can't think of to just check Ancient's files.
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Sep 14 2005, 03:25 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
All the later edition plotlines involving Ghouls have been jacked up from the get-go. Ghouls explicitly live off of synthetic tissue, surviving off the leftovers of organ cloning street docs. That means that the entire segment of Dunkelzahn's Will regarding making synthetic food for Ghouls makes zero sense. In shadowrun technology, you can rapidly grow clonal human tissue, and that's synthetic, and Ghouls can survive on that.
The "new information" that Ghouls were an HMHVV variant, depite having none of the characteristics of the other HMHVV expressions, came with "new rules" that allowed your character to become infected with Ghoulishness. Or to put it another way - so that your Troll could take Super Serum and get a bunch of stacking stat bonuses and become Dual Natured. Balls to that! 1st Edition Ghouls forever. Later cheesemonkeys writing that section of metaplot can suck it. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:37 PM
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#9
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Maybe syntethic meat doesn't have esscence (which is what the ghould need iirc)? Or it just doesn't taste good? ;) |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:39 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
I'm new to SR (at least the story, I've played SR3 enough to know mechanics).
Are Ghouls shoot on sight type D&D ghouls? Or are they actual peple and stuff too? The SR4 book has them listed in the enemies section, and the only other reference in the book lists them as urban predators. Can they get a comm-link and buy groceries, etc too? |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:41 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
From what I gather could you just assign PC ghouls the addiction of real human flesh? But let them get sustenance from synth stuff? Maybe apply the will towards stuff that satisfies cravings?
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Sep 14 2005, 03:46 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Some ghouls maintain their sanity and sentience after being infected. Other got barking nuts. Ghouls are blind and must always astrally perceive in order to "see." Therefore, by canon, they are dual natured. It is as a result of the HMHVV infection that they lose their eyesight. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:48 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Most of the world views ghouls as shoot on sight but there have been some pretty charismatic ghouls in the SR story and there are organizations fighting for ghoul rights.
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Sep 14 2005, 03:56 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The Krieger-Strain of HMHVV has variable effects, metahumans infected with it may be reduced to mindless, fleshcraving animals (think 28 Days Later), or they may retain their full intelligence (as the ghoul decker Dark Father). The campaign for ghoul rights is a divisive issue in many countries, but most municipalities offer bounties for ghouls. The nation of Asamando in Africa is populated solely (or almost solely) by ghouls. Intelligent ghouls may mask their appearence to interact with normal society by a number of methods. Yes, they can get cyber.
Synthetic in this case probably refers to something that wasn't grown out of actual human DNA. As far as has been determined, ghouls don't need to consume Essence - hell, they could probably take bites out of shedim and flesh-form insect spirits without anything more than a tummy ache.
The Paranormal Animal books released in 1st edition are what toyed with the different strains and expressions of HMHVV, actually. Rules for playing ghouls were introduced sporadically in SRII - Bug City, Target: UCAS, and the Shadowrun Companion all featured material for playing ghouls.
I believe the text in SR2 states this explicitly, but I'd have to check. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:58 PM
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#15
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
A yeah, i start to remember. They need some amount of human meat per day. |
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Sep 14 2005, 03:59 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
I'm with Frank Trollman on this one.
Of course I have never ever liked anything doing with the HMHVV. I mean, in a setting includes magic why can't vampires (and their ilk) come about though...I don't know...MAGIC... And there was always the silliest explanation for the HMHVV..."it exists but is too small for our microscopes to see"...B.S. In my games there is no such thing as the HMHVV and it was all just a conspiracy...by whom is the real question... |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:00 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ghouls need human flesh. Any human flesh. Even human flesh that has been dead for months (and thus, has no essence anyhow). It's a dietary requirement, not a magical power. Ghouls don't even have the ability to eat your essence. They don't lose essence either, so if they never got fed something that had ever been part of a living human, they would still be fine as long as the stuff was chemically "human flesh".
No. Ghouls are living humans who experience a lot of trauma, often have mental problems, and have a dietary requirement for human flesh. They are also ugly and smell very bad, so in addition to being genuinely dangerous they are publically maligned. Ghouls are considered kill-on-sight in many parts of the world.
Yep. Ghouls can hold jobs, and are not biologically required to kill or harm any other person, and some of them don't.
Well, there's also the Ghoul Liberation League on page 50, but admittedly that's not much. Cyberpirates also talks about a Ghoul Nation of Asamando in what is essentially Burkina Faso, which means that it has a population of about 13 million. Unfortunately, that section was not really well written, and mostly happened because the authors thought the word "Black Volta" was really cool. Sigh. Here's the original (and best) run-down on Ghouls: Ghouls are humans who undergo the most traumatic of the metatype expressions. Many of them are quite insane, and they all need to eat human flesh (though not necessarily living human flesh, most Ghouls are scavengers). Ghouls are very unpopular in most of the world, and prone to violent behavior (which they are very, very good at). Most Ghouls have impaired vision to one degree or another, but their other senses are enhanced. Ghouls secrete small amounts of cadaverine in their sweat (C5H14N2 - a compound which smells like its namesake).
Yes and no. They can (and in some cases do) perform those actions. Many Ghouls are just too crazy to get that sort of thing together. And many places have actual bounties on Ghouls, making that sort of commerce difficult. Ghouls have a socially unacceptable odor, which means that in most parts of the world they are going to have to wear a chem suit or cover themselves with cleansing enzyme paste if they want to hang out in the mall without offending people. Of course, with acid rain being what it is, some 2.5m guy walking around in a bright red chem suit isn't all that noteworthy - most people would assume they were looking at a very scrawny ork or perhaps a very buffed out elf. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 04:29 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Back to the original point: A vampire is not, by definition or viral infection, dual natured. If they are capable of astral perception they can become temporarily dual natured.
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Sep 14 2005, 04:55 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's totally reasonable. Most of the HMHVV stuff is pretty lame. "Viruses so small you can't see them with nano-probes" doens't make a heck of a lot of sense. But you can do some pretty col things with the stat lines and game mechanics. Try this one on: Vampires: Vampires are an awakened viral colony which take the form of a human being previously killed by the virus and sustained by consuming the essence of metahumans. A vampire reproduces by killing a human by draining all of their essence and implanting a small portion of themselves into the corpse. The colony then consumes all of the flesh and the last traces of the victim's essence, and reforms into a new vampire in the shape of the human so consumed. When the new vampire is formed, it takes on many of the memories of the host body and retains relatively few of the memories of the sire vampire. As such, many vampires are deluded nto believing that they actually are the human that was consumed to produce them. Vampires can discorporate into an airborne state and reform afterwards. Since a vampire is sustained by human essence rather than the biology of the human body whose shape it copies, it is relatively difficult to kill by conventional means. Even traditionally lethal injuries can usually be healed by the vampire simply dispersing and reforming itself around the injury. --- There. Vampires are no longer "Oh woe is me, really bad pseudo science has given me vast powers for no reason!", they are Swamp Thing. A floating pile of microscopic organisms which killed a guy, stole his memories, and may now be confused on that point. Vampires don't "die", they die. That explains their power set, as well as having non-insulting (meta)physics while still making a cool story. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 05:42 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
There have always been better (and more intersting ways) to deal with HMHVV, and specifically vampires. But for me, no explanation was needed. For me they were simply around because of Magic, or more accurately an acient powerful curse. No further explanation needed. |
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Sep 14 2005, 07:06 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Frank, you seem to have alot of misconceptions about SR vampires, and you seem to be using them to justify your own house ruled SR universe. That in of itself is fine. That you are spreading your misconceptions as fact. Well, that gets my goat somethign bad. So, uh please stop?
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Sep 14 2005, 07:21 PM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
When did I put my house rules forward as fact? What I said was:
As in, I suggested an alternate set of house rules to explain the game mechanics without being kind of stupid. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 07:39 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
No where does it say that HMHVV is so small that it cant be seen or operated on. In fact there are specific cases in game of people modifying the virus to suit thier needs.
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Sep 14 2005, 07:51 PM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I wish that was true. The original tirade was indeed that HMHVV was too small to be detected using normal techniques. Which was dumb. -Frank |
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Sep 14 2005, 07:56 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
That I do not recall. Got a quote on it? |
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